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[Music]

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welcome back to liminal frames

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i'm your host nathan and i'm here with

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my co-host exo academian it's good to be

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back with all of you who are listening

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exo how's it going

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it's going great this is going to be a

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fun topic tonight and i know it'll be

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interesting for people out there and

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interesting for us

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absolutely uh yeah tonight's topic is

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a little bit of a loaded one uh it's not

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a topic that i think everyone uh

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particularly likes to talk about when

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when you think about ufology

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uh some people on the other hand like to

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talk about it quite a bit uh i recognize

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and i think you do as well that this

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topic

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is a little bit of a loaded one uh that

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for some people

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uh it um i think kind of brings in a

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little bit of a third rail uh for some

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um and so

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as we talked about kind of before we

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started uh we really want to sort of

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ask for the charity of the audience here

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uh that they

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kind of bear with us as we work our way

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through this material

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uh and uh and know that we are

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you know we are trying to go to a

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certain place we're trying to take

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everyone on a little bit of a journey uh

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both

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the journey that we each have gone

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through but also how we look at this

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material now

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and you know with that being said uh

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we'll just get right into it so we are

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going to

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talk about

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uh angels and demons

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on this episode

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um exo just saying it out loud i realize

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how much of a sort of loaded topic that

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really is uh i know you've done an

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episode on this uh i think it was um a

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little bit midway through

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the life of your podcast um

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and uh so you've got some thoughts on it

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i was wondering if you would be willing

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to kind of start us off and talk

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to some degree about your own journey

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with this topic

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maybe outside of ufology but of course

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with ufology

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as well

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yeah sure and i think

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what's interesting about this is

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depending on your background

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you'll either be um you'll either

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understand or be flammoxed by how peop

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how some people approach this because

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the angels and demons topic to some

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people seems like you know not related

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to ufology what's that got to do with

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aliens and spacecraft you know and

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interdimensionals

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and yet there are some people coming in

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it thinking it's it's got everything in

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the world to do with it because

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basically

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you know these ets or these aliens or

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these interdimensionals are actually you

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know demons in disguise or these

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nefarious spiritual figures in disguise

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that are referenced in

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historical

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spiritual traditions like uh

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christianity in the bible right in terms

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of where it is in scripture

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so this is this is a this is a tricky

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one some people will be even a bit

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triggered i think uh by this topic

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either in the positive or the negative

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some people will sort of be like this

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well that's religion this has got

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nothing to do with this i don't want to

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hear about that at the same time when

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you look at some of the experiences

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people have whether either positive or

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negative

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there's always this discussion of the

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spiritual element you know that even

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researchers who go in like when heineken

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valley went in and talked to people even

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john keel

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you know they weren't going in looking

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for a spiritual interpretation of what

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happened to people they weren't going in

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assuming these were

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celestial figures that they encountered

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they were thinking they had some sort of

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experience with

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perhaps an extraterrestrial like we've

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discussed before

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for heineken valley that was the

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beginning hypothesis right

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but it was the nature of the experiences

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people had how it changed them how it

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changed their perspective on reality and

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who they are you know and even when we

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look at the

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the free data um

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that came out it talked about people's

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perspective on life and material goods

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and everything

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how they relate to other people

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everything changed

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um again some for the negative some for

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the positive i'm not suggesting it's all

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positive experiences i think that's that

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does a disservice to the to the data

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whenever we try and do that but within

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that totality there's often a spiritual

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element that's very common so i think

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sooner or later you have to dive into

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this right so that's what we're gonna

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we're gonna dive in now

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i think we're going to look at it from

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from many different perspectives because

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i think you have to to sort of try and

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you know wrap your head around it do

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justice to the data

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it's it's also interesting because when

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you and i talked about um first starting

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up this podcast

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we both um have christianity as part of

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our background

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and what i also want to

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inform people out there

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about is that

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that can mean many different things you

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know say if you're not coming from a

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christian background saying you are

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coming from a christian background can

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mean many different things

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um of course in in americana it's to

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some degree been uh you know

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welded to the the fabric of the national

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identity for some people right

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but we're going to talk about it beyond

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that kind of parameter um

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but

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for me

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i'll just give a quick

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quick intro and then jump it over to you

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so you can give yours as well

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so part of my life has been at one point

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i identified as a christian it's not so

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much that i don't identify as a

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christian now i'm just more sort of

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universalist i'm very

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spiritually minded um

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i'm but i'm as as informed by zen

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buddhism as i am by contemplative

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christianity um

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and

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you know sort of follow the

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sort of the the good buddhist notion

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that you know if you're buddhist you

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don't call yourself a buddhist kind of

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thing you know and same thing with

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christianity like

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the terms are not really helpful um i

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don't find so what i will say is that

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i'm a spiritual person again some people

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want to draw this hard line between

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spiritual versus religious i don't i

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think it's more murky than that um

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i've had sort of

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official traditional religion in my

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background as well as much more um you

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know loose affiliation kind of a

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smorgasbord of taking a bit of that a

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bit of this

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um

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and that's more where i am now

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but at one point

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in my late teens i became what i would

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call an evangelical christian

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and um

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and have been in sort of several

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different

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modalities within that so i've been

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everything from

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a southern baptist to

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a charismatic christian uh even even

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eastern orthodox for for a period of

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time so quite a range you know

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um pentecostal

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presbyterian for a while so really it's

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almost like i was making sure i stopped

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and and so i've been in places where

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the spiritual experience was in some

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ways

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reduced to

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references to things that happened to

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people in a book right and that's sort

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of more

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one way of looking at it for some

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christian traditions other ones very

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much things were happening in real time

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you know in more the more charismatic

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circles

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things were happening um you know people

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were having spiritual experiences not

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just individuals but entire groups of

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people were having things and those were

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not just

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like psychosomatic kind of projections

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of people these really were experiences

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and i think

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those experiences actually prepped me

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for some understandings of what's going

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on with the phenomenon because they're

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not as

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disalike as some people think

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um

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yeah so that's what i would say as a

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brief introduction is that i've been in

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i've had spiritual experiences in more

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traditional christian circles that

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actually helped prep me for

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uh experiences with the phenomenon and

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experiences that i couldn't put in a box

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and and i would say that

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it's interesting how

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the frameworks we use the framing again

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right that we we apply to these

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experiences has as much to do with what

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we take away from them as as the nature

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of the experience itself uh which is was

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interesting when we talk about

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maybe we can get into this later how

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different people take different things

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out of their experiences even with the

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phenomenon and talking about how our own

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interpretive framework feeds into that

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so that's what i'd say for me how about

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for you

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yeah it's

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it's been quite a journey

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uh for me as well so i

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and i do approach this topic for you

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know with that context a similar context

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and this is you know partly why we get

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along so well as we do share

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i think a little bit of a common fabric

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uh and a way of thinking as well about

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these issues

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um i

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you know come at this from a christian

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background grew up in a christian home

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and

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my sort of lens

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really through the uh more of an

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academic perspective um academic and and

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practical

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um so

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my father was a minister a very educated

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minister uh

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you know he he could read the greek new

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testament um and so he

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he

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took that kind of scholarship to uh

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to his ministry

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uh and and then imparted that really

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without

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just i kind of got it through osmosis if

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you will

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just being in the household and so

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you know when we talk about things like

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spirituality

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for me at least

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00:10:18,389 --> 00:10:17,200
that was something i always kind of

288
00:10:22,150 --> 00:10:18,399
categorized

289
00:10:27,430 --> 00:10:24,949
something that could be

290
00:10:29,269 --> 00:10:27,440
understood through the lens of

291
00:10:31,590 --> 00:10:29,279
really materialism or the chemical

292
00:10:33,509 --> 00:10:31,600
processes of the brain you know kind of

293
00:10:36,630 --> 00:10:33,519
really lumping it into

294
00:10:40,949 --> 00:10:38,949
maybe were just mislabeled

295
00:10:42,389 --> 00:10:40,959
you know so that could be better

296
00:10:43,350 --> 00:10:42,399
understood

297
00:10:45,509 --> 00:10:43,360
and so

298
00:10:47,430 --> 00:10:45,519
with that very sort of strongly kind of

299
00:10:49,430 --> 00:10:47,440
rational perspective

300
00:10:51,350 --> 00:10:49,440
on on spirituality and spiritual

301
00:10:52,949 --> 00:10:51,360
experience not that i never had friends

302
00:10:55,750 --> 00:10:52,959
who had spiritual experiences or heard

303
00:10:57,190 --> 00:10:55,760
of them i always just sort of

304
00:10:58,949 --> 00:10:57,200
took those on

305
00:11:01,030 --> 00:10:58,959
from the vantage point of okay that's

306
00:11:02,710 --> 00:11:01,040
interesting that's not something i've

307
00:11:04,949 --> 00:11:02,720
ever experienced and whatever that is

308
00:11:06,310 --> 00:11:04,959
that they're sharing with me it's

309
00:11:07,750 --> 00:11:06,320
probably something that they're

310
00:11:10,710 --> 00:11:07,760
translating

311
00:11:13,190 --> 00:11:10,720
uh to me through their their lived

312
00:11:14,790 --> 00:11:13,200
experience but at the root of that is

313
00:11:17,509 --> 00:11:14,800
something that is actually very

314
00:11:19,509 --> 00:11:17,519
explainable in uh in the way that we

315
00:11:21,509 --> 00:11:19,519
would explain

316
00:11:23,509 --> 00:11:21,519
any kind of mental process

317
00:11:26,470 --> 00:11:23,519
uh or something that we would you know

318
00:11:28,870 --> 00:11:26,480
sort of examine in a laboratory so in a

319
00:11:31,829 --> 00:11:28,880
way i kind of like made it very clinical

320
00:11:33,910 --> 00:11:31,839
and cold uh spirituality but they sort

321
00:11:34,710 --> 00:11:33,920
of secretly like really wanted that as

322
00:11:36,550 --> 00:11:34,720
well

323
00:11:39,670 --> 00:11:36,560
um i think

324
00:11:42,470 --> 00:11:39,680
it's important too to highlight that

325
00:11:45,750 --> 00:11:42,480
that as a human being

326
00:11:48,230 --> 00:11:45,760
we have a lot of experiences that

327
00:11:52,230 --> 00:11:48,240
we we aren't good at categorizing you

328
00:11:56,629 --> 00:11:54,230
there are many things that that we we

329
00:12:00,230 --> 00:11:56,639
experience on a daily basis

330
00:12:03,670 --> 00:12:00,240
that we experience in a very visceral

331
00:12:06,870 --> 00:12:03,680
uh in a phenomenal way not in a

332
00:12:09,110 --> 00:12:06,880
examined you know dissected way and so

333
00:12:10,870 --> 00:12:09,120
when you talked about uh

334
00:12:13,509 --> 00:12:10,880
labels you know sort of christianity or

335
00:12:15,590 --> 00:12:13,519
buddhism i really resonate a lot with

336
00:12:17,910 --> 00:12:15,600
that perspective because for me those

337
00:12:19,990 --> 00:12:17,920
labels

338
00:12:22,310 --> 00:12:20,000
at some point in my life got in the way

339
00:12:24,949 --> 00:12:22,320
they got in the way of of what we were

340
00:12:27,190 --> 00:12:24,959
really talking about and i find it

341
00:12:29,030 --> 00:12:27,200
pretty difficult and and honestly

342
00:12:32,230 --> 00:12:29,040
disingenuous even

343
00:12:34,150 --> 00:12:32,240
for people to say that they are an ex

344
00:12:36,389 --> 00:12:34,160
because the truth is at least at least

345
00:12:39,350 --> 00:12:36,399
in the experience that i know and i

346
00:12:42,069 --> 00:12:39,360
that's all that i have to go on um

347
00:12:43,670 --> 00:12:42,079
at any given moment any given day

348
00:12:49,509 --> 00:12:43,680
my

349
00:12:52,790 --> 00:12:49,519
is really going through

350
00:12:55,670 --> 00:12:52,800
a stream of different feelings and

351
00:12:57,590 --> 00:12:55,680
thoughts conclusions beliefs

352
00:12:59,590 --> 00:12:57,600
and all those different things and to

353
00:13:01,590 --> 00:12:59,600
say that i'm an ex

354
00:13:04,870 --> 00:13:01,600
almost feels like it really reduces me

355
00:13:07,590 --> 00:13:04,880
to something that is no longer

356
00:13:09,509 --> 00:13:07,600
you know valuable it's it's uh it's if i

357
00:13:10,710 --> 00:13:09,519
just i'm calling myself a rock and i'm

358
00:13:13,190 --> 00:13:10,720
not a rock

359
00:13:13,990 --> 00:13:13,200
you know so um i know that i'm something

360
00:13:17,110 --> 00:13:14,000
else

361
00:13:19,750 --> 00:13:17,120
beyond that and so you know this topic i

362
00:13:22,069 --> 00:13:19,760
know we're kind of getting our way there

363
00:13:23,269 --> 00:13:22,079
with angels and demons but i think it's

364
00:13:24,870 --> 00:13:23,279
important for our listeners to

365
00:13:27,670 --> 00:13:24,880
understand the

366
00:13:29,190 --> 00:13:27,680
the pathway that we both have taken to

367
00:13:31,110 --> 00:13:29,200
this subject

368
00:13:34,069 --> 00:13:31,120
we have

369
00:13:36,870 --> 00:13:34,079
come at it a little differently

370
00:13:37,670 --> 00:13:36,880
you know i've never been one that has

371
00:13:39,509 --> 00:13:37,680
uh

372
00:13:43,030 --> 00:13:39,519
really kind of

373
00:13:45,910 --> 00:13:43,040
gone hard and into the experiential side

374
00:13:49,350 --> 00:13:45,920
of religion i've gone into it very much

375
00:13:51,829 --> 00:13:49,360
from a analytical side

376
00:13:55,189 --> 00:13:51,839
but but i yearn in a way for that

377
00:13:58,069 --> 00:13:55,199
experiential side and i think you if you

378
00:13:59,990 --> 00:13:58,079
know in the talks that we've had uh

379
00:14:01,670 --> 00:14:00,000
you know you've been much more willing

380
00:14:05,110 --> 00:14:01,680
or have had moments in your life where

381
00:14:07,750 --> 00:14:05,120
you have embraced that experiential side

382
00:14:10,470 --> 00:14:07,760
uh more readily uh would you say that's

383
00:14:12,389 --> 00:14:10,480
a fair uh assessment

384
00:14:15,430 --> 00:14:12,399
yeah it's it's interesting because i've

385
00:14:16,790 --> 00:14:15,440
definitely done both you know i've i've

386
00:14:17,750 --> 00:14:16,800
you know when you're growing up you kind

387
00:14:20,389 --> 00:14:17,760
of

388
00:14:22,550 --> 00:14:20,399
try different perspectives on reality

389
00:14:24,790 --> 00:14:22,560
like a like a suit that you try on for a

390
00:14:26,150 --> 00:14:24,800
while and see how it fits until it feels

391
00:14:28,230 --> 00:14:26,160
too constricting or something and then

392
00:14:30,470 --> 00:14:28,240
you're like this this isn't quite right

393
00:14:32,470 --> 00:14:30,480
but i i would always sort of like live

394
00:14:33,829 --> 00:14:32,480
it to the fullest so i'd wear that suit

395
00:14:35,750 --> 00:14:33,839
proudly you know and say this is i'm

396
00:14:38,069 --> 00:14:35,760
going to say this is reality and i'm

397
00:14:40,790 --> 00:14:38,079
going to try this out and i because i

398
00:14:42,310 --> 00:14:40,800
would push it to the to the nth degree

399
00:14:43,430 --> 00:14:42,320
i would often

400
00:14:45,030 --> 00:14:43,440
you know get to the point where the suit

401
00:14:45,750 --> 00:14:45,040
was no longer comfortable pretty quickly

402
00:14:47,110 --> 00:14:45,760
too

403
00:14:50,629 --> 00:14:47,120
um we can use the suit as sort of an

404
00:14:52,069 --> 00:14:50,639
analogy for a world view so i remember

405
00:14:56,230 --> 00:14:52,079
times where i was you know in

406
00:14:58,550 --> 00:14:56,240
charismatic circles and and and really

407
00:15:00,230 --> 00:14:58,560
you have this imminent sense that god is

408
00:15:02,470 --> 00:15:00,240
doing something in the world and you can

409
00:15:03,350 --> 00:15:02,480
feel it and you feel like you're at the

410
00:15:04,790 --> 00:15:03,360
um

411
00:15:06,710 --> 00:15:04,800
you're right at the front lines and it's

412
00:15:08,069 --> 00:15:06,720
a very exciting feeling because you feel

413
00:15:09,590 --> 00:15:08,079
like you know

414
00:15:11,829 --> 00:15:09,600
the most important things are happening

415
00:15:13,030 --> 00:15:11,839
right now you know and and we're a part

416
00:15:15,269 --> 00:15:13,040
of it and

417
00:15:16,389 --> 00:15:15,279
and i've also been at different times in

418
00:15:17,990 --> 00:15:16,399
my life

419
00:15:19,430 --> 00:15:18,000
had a much more of a like an arm's

420
00:15:20,470 --> 00:15:19,440
length kind of perspective where i'm

421
00:15:22,470 --> 00:15:20,480
like

422
00:15:23,430 --> 00:15:22,480
let me take a historical critical view

423
00:15:26,230 --> 00:15:23,440
of

424
00:15:28,550 --> 00:15:26,240
spiritual experiences and even the way

425
00:15:29,910 --> 00:15:28,560
we interpret it interpret previous

426
00:15:31,030 --> 00:15:29,920
spiritual experiences from various

427
00:15:33,110 --> 00:15:31,040
traditions

428
00:15:35,430 --> 00:15:33,120
and and so it's kind of funny even when

429
00:15:37,269 --> 00:15:35,440
i think back now and i look back on it

430
00:15:39,350 --> 00:15:37,279
i've almost become these like alter

431
00:15:42,470 --> 00:15:39,360
personalities kind of thing and tried on

432
00:15:44,069 --> 00:15:42,480
both and realized that some um

433
00:15:46,389 --> 00:15:44,079
combination of the two or some

434
00:15:47,910 --> 00:15:46,399
transcendence of the two into some that

435
00:15:50,069 --> 00:15:47,920
both of those were sort of two sides of

436
00:15:52,150 --> 00:15:50,079
the same coin that was too restrictive

437
00:15:53,590 --> 00:15:52,160
but that was one developmental level

438
00:15:55,030 --> 00:15:53,600
like two different sides of one

439
00:15:57,350 --> 00:15:55,040
developmental level

440
00:15:59,030 --> 00:15:57,360
and it's only when i transcended that

441
00:16:00,629 --> 00:15:59,040
and that i think the discomfort of

442
00:16:03,030 --> 00:16:00,639
living in both those and neither one

443
00:16:05,030 --> 00:16:03,040
feeling right is what births the

444
00:16:07,990 --> 00:16:05,040
transcendence to a to a

445
00:16:08,949 --> 00:16:08,000
to a higher level that's broader as well

446
00:16:11,430 --> 00:16:08,959
um

447
00:16:13,590 --> 00:16:11,440
so yeah i would say that's been my my

448
00:16:16,470 --> 00:16:13,600
take is sort of like trying on both to

449
00:16:17,910 --> 00:16:16,480
the nth degree until uh it transcends

450
00:16:19,990 --> 00:16:17,920
transcends into something different

451
00:16:21,509 --> 00:16:20,000
entirely

452
00:16:23,910 --> 00:16:21,519
well with this topic partic in

453
00:16:26,629 --> 00:16:23,920
particular what

454
00:16:28,230 --> 00:16:26,639
what what's your sense in which why

455
00:16:30,949 --> 00:16:28,240
looking at

456
00:16:33,189 --> 00:16:30,959
you know sort of ufos or aliens you know

457
00:16:35,189 --> 00:16:33,199
from the vantage of

458
00:16:36,550 --> 00:16:35,199
angels and demons and

459
00:16:39,269 --> 00:16:36,560
you know this sort of

460
00:16:44,470 --> 00:16:41,910
modern uh you know kind of christian

461
00:16:45,749 --> 00:16:44,480
good and evil dichotomy dualism you know

462
00:16:48,310 --> 00:16:45,759
what what what do you think is

463
00:16:49,590 --> 00:16:48,320
attractive about that perspective as it

464
00:16:52,310 --> 00:16:49,600
applies to

465
00:16:54,389 --> 00:16:52,320
to the topic of ufos

466
00:16:55,910 --> 00:16:54,399
well i would i would say and i've said

467
00:16:57,829 --> 00:16:55,920
this so many times now whether either

468
00:16:59,350 --> 00:16:57,839
here or on point of convergence that

469
00:17:00,790 --> 00:16:59,360
it's almost funny now but i almost

470
00:17:03,350 --> 00:17:00,800
always feel the need to give this

471
00:17:05,270 --> 00:17:03,360
disclaimer which is that

472
00:17:08,069 --> 00:17:05,280
for many people especially in western

473
00:17:10,230 --> 00:17:08,079
civilization um we're not accustomed to

474
00:17:11,189 --> 00:17:10,240
dealing with different entities you know

475
00:17:13,510 --> 00:17:11,199
like we

476
00:17:15,750 --> 00:17:13,520
we have a very cookie cutter kind of

477
00:17:17,909 --> 00:17:15,760
perspective on reality that you know

478
00:17:19,669 --> 00:17:17,919
we're here hanging out with the animals

479
00:17:21,829 --> 00:17:19,679
and the insects

480
00:17:24,470 --> 00:17:21,839
but other than that there's there's no

481
00:17:26,470 --> 00:17:24,480
intelligent entities around and we also

482
00:17:28,710 --> 00:17:26,480
have this bias that what we see what we

483
00:17:29,830 --> 00:17:28,720
perceive of the world is an accurate

484
00:17:31,669 --> 00:17:29,840
portrayal

485
00:17:32,710 --> 00:17:31,679
and we can get into later on how that's

486
00:17:34,549 --> 00:17:32,720
really

487
00:17:36,390 --> 00:17:34,559
almost guaranteed not to be the case now

488
00:17:37,669 --> 00:17:36,400
based on on research

489
00:17:39,350 --> 00:17:37,679
um

490
00:17:43,110 --> 00:17:39,360
but because of that

491
00:17:44,789 --> 00:17:43,120
uh when people hear about you know um

492
00:17:47,590 --> 00:17:44,799
thomas merton who we were talking about

493
00:17:49,190 --> 00:17:47,600
thomas burton earlier

494
00:17:53,029 --> 00:17:49,200
travis walton

495
00:17:53,909 --> 00:17:53,039
looking for not thomas rudin travis

496
00:17:56,630 --> 00:17:53,919
walters

497
00:17:57,990 --> 00:17:56,640
yes travis walton uh

498
00:17:59,990 --> 00:17:58,000
when he came back and shared his

499
00:18:02,070 --> 00:18:00,000
experience after being you know gone for

500
00:18:04,549 --> 00:18:02,080
like a week one of the most famous cases

501
00:18:05,990 --> 00:18:04,559
in history uh i think his mother you

502
00:18:07,510 --> 00:18:06,000
know her perspective was that sounds

503
00:18:09,510 --> 00:18:07,520
like demons to me

504
00:18:11,750 --> 00:18:09,520
and i know if not him then some of the

505
00:18:13,430 --> 00:18:11,760
other guys that definitely was the the

506
00:18:15,110 --> 00:18:13,440
response

507
00:18:16,390 --> 00:18:15,120
so you know half the town thought they

508
00:18:17,510 --> 00:18:16,400
were making it up and the other other

509
00:18:19,190 --> 00:18:17,520
half thought they were abducted by

510
00:18:21,029 --> 00:18:19,200
demons right so that's kind of like what

511
00:18:23,830 --> 00:18:21,039
happens um

512
00:18:26,549 --> 00:18:23,840
but but it comes down to

513
00:18:28,789 --> 00:18:26,559
again this unfamiliarity not so much in

514
00:18:30,950 --> 00:18:28,799
shamanic cultures but in western

515
00:18:33,909 --> 00:18:30,960
cultures uh traditions

516
00:18:35,190 --> 00:18:33,919
we we have this view that again um

517
00:18:37,669 --> 00:18:35,200
either have

518
00:18:38,950 --> 00:18:37,679
angels and god in heaven demons and

519
00:18:39,990 --> 00:18:38,960
satan

520
00:18:41,270 --> 00:18:40,000
in hell

521
00:18:42,710 --> 00:18:41,280
and everything else is the in-between

522
00:18:44,310 --> 00:18:42,720
world that we live in

523
00:18:45,669 --> 00:18:44,320
and if we ever run into something that

524
00:18:47,270 --> 00:18:45,679
doesn't fit

525
00:18:49,750 --> 00:18:47,280
animal or human it's got to be one of

526
00:18:51,990 --> 00:18:49,760
those other two domains so that's why

527
00:18:54,310 --> 00:18:52,000
the first one i think why that's a big

528
00:18:55,909 --> 00:18:54,320
reason why people jump to that quickly

529
00:18:57,190 --> 00:18:55,919
the second one again is because of the

530
00:18:59,830 --> 00:18:57,200
spiritual element that i already

531
00:19:02,470 --> 00:18:59,840
discussed you know that the um

532
00:19:05,110 --> 00:19:02,480
there there's

533
00:19:07,350 --> 00:19:05,120
there's such a spiritual experience that

534
00:19:09,990 --> 00:19:07,360
people have um

535
00:19:11,669 --> 00:19:10,000
it it expands their consciousness you

536
00:19:13,669 --> 00:19:11,679
know that's usually the case even in in

537
00:19:14,630 --> 00:19:13,679
ones that begin as kind of negative

538
00:19:17,350 --> 00:19:14,640
experiences because they're so

539
00:19:19,510 --> 00:19:17,360
overwhelming and so um

540
00:19:21,350 --> 00:19:19,520
you know ontologically shocking

541
00:19:23,909 --> 00:19:21,360
but they're also mind-expanding right

542
00:19:26,549 --> 00:19:23,919
and even people um like whitley strouper

543
00:19:28,549 --> 00:19:26,559
have talked about is the

544
00:19:30,870 --> 00:19:28,559
stretching to the nth degree right to

545
00:19:33,029 --> 00:19:30,880
the edge you know your mind to the point

546
00:19:34,950 --> 00:19:33,039
where it almost breaks is that actually

547
00:19:36,310 --> 00:19:34,960
the birthing process for an expansion of

548
00:19:38,390 --> 00:19:36,320
consciousness

549
00:19:40,150 --> 00:19:38,400
he he's an interesting person to listen

550
00:19:42,230 --> 00:19:40,160
to because on the one hand you see this

551
00:19:43,990 --> 00:19:42,240
guy early on when he was writing the

552
00:19:46,549 --> 00:19:44,000
original communion trilogy who seemed

553
00:19:47,590 --> 00:19:46,559
really tormented by his experiences

554
00:19:49,590 --> 00:19:47,600
and yet

555
00:19:51,430 --> 00:19:49,600
he he wouldn't trade them looking back

556
00:19:53,110 --> 00:19:51,440
now that he feels like it's the it

557
00:19:55,990 --> 00:19:53,120
creates the greatest

558
00:19:58,070 --> 00:19:56,000
opportunity for spiritual transformation

559
00:19:59,430 --> 00:19:58,080
um that's available to a human being in

560
00:20:01,029 --> 00:19:59,440
some ways

561
00:20:03,110 --> 00:20:01,039
and there are other spiritual traditions

562
00:20:04,950 --> 00:20:03,120
speaking of today's topic where where

563
00:20:07,430 --> 00:20:04,960
similar things happen we talk about a

564
00:20:08,630 --> 00:20:07,440
kundalini break you know where where

565
00:20:11,669 --> 00:20:08,640
people have

566
00:20:14,470 --> 00:20:11,679
an expansion of consciousness so quickly

567
00:20:16,630 --> 00:20:14,480
and so expansively that it basically

568
00:20:18,390 --> 00:20:16,640
cracks their their sense of who they are

569
00:20:20,470 --> 00:20:18,400
for a while and so i even know people

570
00:20:23,029 --> 00:20:20,480
who've been committed you know into an

571
00:20:24,470 --> 00:20:23,039
asylum or whatever or under care for a

572
00:20:26,390 --> 00:20:24,480
week or two because they've had these

573
00:20:28,070 --> 00:20:26,400
kind of breaking experiences

574
00:20:29,750 --> 00:20:28,080
so they can be

575
00:20:30,870 --> 00:20:29,760
extremely disruptive

576
00:20:32,390 --> 00:20:30,880
so

577
00:20:34,390 --> 00:20:32,400
getting back to your initial question i

578
00:20:36,149 --> 00:20:34,400
think it's partly to do with

579
00:20:38,070 --> 00:20:36,159
the way especially in the west and by

580
00:20:40,470 --> 00:20:38,080
that i mean western civilization

581
00:20:42,070 --> 00:20:40,480
we tend to have a very truncated view of

582
00:20:44,549 --> 00:20:42,080
what's available in terms of who's

583
00:20:45,669 --> 00:20:44,559
around and then we have this spiritual

584
00:20:48,950 --> 00:20:45,679
element

585
00:20:52,230 --> 00:20:48,960
that is so often part of these cases and

586
00:20:56,950 --> 00:20:54,549
so mind expanding they

587
00:20:59,190 --> 00:20:56,960
they blow apart our previous conception

588
00:21:01,029 --> 00:20:59,200
of reality whether for the good or for

589
00:21:03,909 --> 00:21:01,039
the bad or start with a bad end with a

590
00:21:06,390 --> 00:21:03,919
good whatever um they're still so so

591
00:21:08,470 --> 00:21:06,400
mind stretching that um they end up

592
00:21:11,510 --> 00:21:08,480
being perceived as spiritual experiences

593
00:21:16,390 --> 00:21:13,590
something you said

594
00:21:18,549 --> 00:21:16,400
the way you kind of put that to me it

595
00:21:20,390 --> 00:21:18,559
makes me think of

596
00:21:23,430 --> 00:21:20,400
the phrase

597
00:21:25,669 --> 00:21:23,440
sort of hegemonic frameworks right

598
00:21:27,669 --> 00:21:25,679
which is a really awkward phrase to use

599
00:21:29,190 --> 00:21:27,679
but what i'm getting at there is the way

600
00:21:32,070 --> 00:21:29,200
in which

601
00:21:34,230 --> 00:21:32,080
all of us approach experience

602
00:21:37,669 --> 00:21:34,240
and and and we we approach it from a

603
00:21:39,590 --> 00:21:37,679
from a place we are grounded in a place

604
00:21:40,950 --> 00:21:39,600
and so we we have

605
00:21:43,990 --> 00:21:40,960
conceptions

606
00:21:46,390 --> 00:21:44,000
uh ideas beliefs buckets in which we

607
00:21:48,789 --> 00:21:46,400
place experience whenever we're having

608
00:21:49,830 --> 00:21:48,799
any experience we are categorizing those

609
00:21:51,110 --> 00:21:49,840
things

610
00:21:54,870 --> 00:21:51,120
into

611
00:21:56,070 --> 00:21:54,880
these groups that we are familiar with

612
00:21:58,549 --> 00:21:56,080
and

613
00:22:00,310 --> 00:21:58,559
you know even as you sort of compare

614
00:22:03,510 --> 00:22:00,320
western ways of thinking with eastern

615
00:22:05,750 --> 00:22:03,520
ways of thinking i'm reminded of uh sort

616
00:22:07,190 --> 00:22:05,760
of ways of thought that i've had in the

617
00:22:09,430 --> 00:22:07,200
past where

618
00:22:10,950 --> 00:22:09,440
you think to yourself well yeah that

619
00:22:12,470 --> 00:22:10,960
that may be that maybe that's the way

620
00:22:14,470 --> 00:22:12,480
that they think but that's very

621
00:22:16,630 --> 00:22:14,480
superstitious you know that's very so

622
00:22:18,870 --> 00:22:16,640
right there i'm already making a

623
00:22:21,510 --> 00:22:18,880
i'm categorizing and making a value

624
00:22:23,190 --> 00:22:21,520
judgment and putting these beliefs

625
00:22:24,830 --> 00:22:23,200
you know and what i find what i have

626
00:22:26,789 --> 00:22:24,840
found to be very

627
00:22:28,950 --> 00:22:26,799
um

628
00:22:30,870 --> 00:22:28,960
true at least for me

629
00:22:33,669 --> 00:22:30,880
is that

630
00:22:35,990 --> 00:22:33,679
those judgments and assumptions

631
00:22:36,950 --> 00:22:36,000
inevitably fall apart

632
00:22:39,909 --> 00:22:36,960
so

633
00:22:41,909 --> 00:22:39,919
if i'm if i'm really being honest and

634
00:22:43,830 --> 00:22:41,919
and looking at

635
00:22:46,310 --> 00:22:43,840
the conclusions that i come to with

636
00:22:49,909 --> 00:22:46,320
respect to experience

637
00:22:52,149 --> 00:22:49,919
it's very rare where i will

638
00:22:54,149 --> 00:22:52,159
over the course of time

639
00:22:55,510 --> 00:22:54,159
come to the same conclusion about the

640
00:22:58,549 --> 00:22:55,520
experience

641
00:23:00,470 --> 00:22:58,559
and i really think that should inform

642
00:23:01,350 --> 00:23:00,480
and i know you you know you would agree

643
00:23:03,750 --> 00:23:01,360
like

644
00:23:06,310 --> 00:23:03,760
inform the way we look at this topic

645
00:23:08,630 --> 00:23:06,320
just period you know so we have this

646
00:23:11,029 --> 00:23:08,640
position or this sort of i think

647
00:23:13,909 --> 00:23:11,039
unchecked assumption that the way we're

648
00:23:17,029 --> 00:23:13,919
looking at the phenomenon now

649
00:23:18,950 --> 00:23:17,039
is the way it will always be looked at

650
00:23:21,029 --> 00:23:18,960
and we look back in history and say look

651
00:23:23,110 --> 00:23:21,039
at the way they looked at the world

652
00:23:26,710 --> 00:23:23,120
and how absolutely

653
00:23:29,430 --> 00:23:26,720
silly you know was that perspective

654
00:23:30,149 --> 00:23:29,440
from where we are and and we almost like

655
00:23:35,990 --> 00:23:30,159
it's

656
00:23:38,149 --> 00:23:36,000
there is no future there is no future

657
00:23:38,950 --> 00:23:38,159
where there is a world looking back at

658
00:23:42,390 --> 00:23:38,960
us

659
00:23:44,070 --> 00:23:42,400
and saying the exact same thing and so

660
00:23:46,549 --> 00:23:44,080
you know with this topic

661
00:23:48,390 --> 00:23:46,559
and i know i'm talking very very broadly

662
00:23:49,590 --> 00:23:48,400
here just about you know frameworks

663
00:23:51,590 --> 00:23:49,600
generally

664
00:23:52,390 --> 00:23:51,600
but i i think it's an important point to

665
00:23:54,950 --> 00:23:52,400
make

666
00:23:57,430 --> 00:23:54,960
that we come at the we come at the

667
00:23:59,830 --> 00:23:57,440
subject the subject of the phenomenon

668
00:24:04,710 --> 00:23:59,840
from a from a grounded place and

669
00:24:06,789 --> 00:24:04,720
everyone comes in from a different angle

670
00:24:08,870 --> 00:24:06,799
yeah i think that's a great point and i

671
00:24:10,950 --> 00:24:08,880
really want to

672
00:24:12,310 --> 00:24:10,960
you know put a nail on that board as

673
00:24:13,510 --> 00:24:12,320
well because

674
00:24:15,110 --> 00:24:13,520
i think

675
00:24:16,710 --> 00:24:15,120
one thing we want to do with this show

676
00:24:19,590 --> 00:24:16,720
in general because i know that this is

677
00:24:22,149 --> 00:24:19,600
the way we think about reality is that

678
00:24:24,630 --> 00:24:22,159
again the framing is just as important

679
00:24:25,830 --> 00:24:24,640
as the experiences themselves and i was

680
00:24:27,430 --> 00:24:25,840
thinking about what you were just saying

681
00:24:29,110 --> 00:24:27,440
there in terms of i was i was going to

682
00:24:31,029 --> 00:24:29,120
say the same thing you said

683
00:24:32,789 --> 00:24:31,039
in the sense that not only will we

684
00:24:34,950 --> 00:24:32,799
change and will society look at these

685
00:24:35,830 --> 00:24:34,960
things differently in the future

686
00:24:38,470 --> 00:24:35,840
but

687
00:24:40,230 --> 00:24:38,480
we we assume that the ones from the past

688
00:24:42,870 --> 00:24:40,240
are just silly right

689
00:24:45,510 --> 00:24:42,880
but it's true even of our own lives that

690
00:24:47,110 --> 00:24:45,520
if if i were to ask you know nathan

691
00:24:48,710 --> 00:24:47,120
of 10 years ago

692
00:24:49,830 --> 00:24:48,720
and say and tell you what you're doing

693
00:24:51,510 --> 00:24:49,840
right now

694
00:24:53,269 --> 00:24:51,520
you might think that sounds insane like

695
00:24:54,630 --> 00:24:53,279
there's no way i would ever in 10 years

696
00:24:55,669 --> 00:24:54,640
from now be the kind of person who does

697
00:24:57,510 --> 00:24:55,679
this show

698
00:24:59,110 --> 00:24:57,520
like this um

699
00:25:01,029 --> 00:24:59,120
and same thing with me i don't think

700
00:25:02,789 --> 00:25:01,039
there's any way that previous iterations

701
00:25:03,909 --> 00:25:02,799
of myself could have predicted where i

702
00:25:05,750 --> 00:25:03,919
am now

703
00:25:07,750 --> 00:25:05,760
but it's very easy for us to make the

704
00:25:09,269 --> 00:25:07,760
mistake of thinking but finally at least

705
00:25:11,269 --> 00:25:09,279
we're here now

706
00:25:13,669 --> 00:25:11,279
from here until the rest of our lives

707
00:25:15,430 --> 00:25:13,679
it's good to know we've arrived but no

708
00:25:16,950 --> 00:25:15,440
that's not the case you know five years

709
00:25:18,230 --> 00:25:16,960
from now ten years from now we will look

710
00:25:20,310 --> 00:25:18,240
back again

711
00:25:24,070 --> 00:25:20,320
and be convinced that the way we saw it

712
00:25:25,750 --> 00:25:24,080
now uh is was partial and incomplete and

713
00:25:28,390 --> 00:25:25,760
in some ways silly

714
00:25:30,470 --> 00:25:28,400
so part of it's just recognizing that we

715
00:25:32,149 --> 00:25:30,480
we are the river you know like we were

716
00:25:34,710 --> 00:25:32,159
and you never enter the same river twice

717
00:25:36,310 --> 00:25:34,720
you know this idea that um we are not

718
00:25:37,590 --> 00:25:36,320
the same people and

719
00:25:39,750 --> 00:25:37,600
um

720
00:25:41,430 --> 00:25:39,760
when we look at this this kind of topic

721
00:25:43,029 --> 00:25:41,440
both from a cultural frame as well as a

722
00:25:44,310 --> 00:25:43,039
personal frame we have to remember that

723
00:25:47,269 --> 00:25:44,320
you know that

724
00:25:49,510 --> 00:25:47,279
um that we're moving targets and

725
00:25:51,510 --> 00:25:49,520
again how we interpret these experiences

726
00:25:53,590 --> 00:25:51,520
as a culture and as individuals has as

727
00:25:54,630 --> 00:25:53,600
much to do with our history and where we

728
00:25:57,029 --> 00:25:54,640
grew up

729
00:25:59,669 --> 00:25:57,039
and our uh our upbringing and our

730
00:26:01,990 --> 00:25:59,679
socio-economic class even sometimes all

731
00:26:03,350 --> 00:26:02,000
of that comes into how we make sense of

732
00:26:05,510 --> 00:26:03,360
the world and definitely how we make

733
00:26:07,190 --> 00:26:05,520
sense of something as mind-boggling as

734
00:26:09,190 --> 00:26:07,200
the phenomenon right

735
00:26:10,950 --> 00:26:09,200
right and with this and with this topic

736
00:26:11,669 --> 00:26:10,960
in particular so angels and demons i

737
00:26:12,549 --> 00:26:11,679
mean

738
00:26:14,230 --> 00:26:12,559
it

739
00:26:18,549 --> 00:26:14,240
maybe more so than the others although

740
00:26:25,590 --> 00:26:20,710
it's in its way and it's sort of stark

741
00:26:27,909 --> 00:26:25,600
contrast is more notably uh

742
00:26:29,669 --> 00:26:27,919
in some ways easy to chastise you know

743
00:26:31,990 --> 00:26:29,679
and i'm saying that

744
00:26:34,470 --> 00:26:32,000
i don't i'm not trying to you know cast

745
00:26:35,909 --> 00:26:34,480
too much judgment there but

746
00:26:37,269 --> 00:26:35,919
you know when you when we look at the

747
00:26:39,190 --> 00:26:37,279
different sort of

748
00:26:41,190 --> 00:26:39,200
ways in which we could couch the

749
00:26:42,789 --> 00:26:41,200
phenomenon you know oh it's it's

750
00:26:44,390 --> 00:26:42,799
extraterrestrial

751
00:26:46,630 --> 00:26:44,400
interdimensional ultra-terrestrial

752
00:26:49,510 --> 00:26:46,640
crypto terrestrial whatever those all

753
00:26:52,149 --> 00:26:49,520
seem a little bit more highbrow you know

754
00:26:54,310 --> 00:26:52,159
sort of socially acceptable than angels

755
00:26:55,190 --> 00:26:54,320
and demons and that that framework right

756
00:26:57,909 --> 00:26:55,200
there

757
00:27:01,350 --> 00:26:57,919
like already puts it in a lane

758
00:27:03,750 --> 00:27:01,360
that in our modern western experience is

759
00:27:06,390 --> 00:27:03,760
is like super obvious to see it's we're

760
00:27:08,230 --> 00:27:06,400
talking in different territory here

761
00:27:10,070 --> 00:27:08,240
because there's an immediate sense that

762
00:27:10,789 --> 00:27:10,080
there is a

763
00:27:12,630 --> 00:27:10,799
uh

764
00:27:13,830 --> 00:27:12,640
there is a cosmology

765
00:27:14,789 --> 00:27:13,840
there that is

766
00:27:16,630 --> 00:27:14,799
pretty

767
00:27:19,510 --> 00:27:16,640
black and white you know that there is a

768
00:27:21,590 --> 00:27:19,520
god that these angels serve there is a

769
00:27:23,430 --> 00:27:21,600
god that these demons you know seem to

770
00:27:25,909 --> 00:27:23,440
be against you know there is this you

771
00:27:28,389 --> 00:27:25,919
know entire structure and i recognize

772
00:27:30,310 --> 00:27:28,399
even just saying that that it's it's way

773
00:27:32,549 --> 00:27:30,320
more nuanced and people that that may

774
00:27:34,630 --> 00:27:32,559
hold this hypothesis to be valuable

775
00:27:36,630 --> 00:27:34,640
probably have a much more nuanced

776
00:27:39,029 --> 00:27:36,640
perspective on it so i am being very

777
00:27:40,230 --> 00:27:39,039
reductionist uh just for the sake of

778
00:27:41,269 --> 00:27:40,240
discussion

779
00:27:42,710 --> 00:27:41,279
uh

780
00:27:45,430 --> 00:27:42,720
but

781
00:27:46,630 --> 00:27:45,440
you know i think as you said earlier

782
00:27:48,630 --> 00:27:46,640
this

783
00:27:50,950 --> 00:27:48,640
looking at it from the vantage of angels

784
00:27:51,830 --> 00:27:50,960
and demons i would imagine

785
00:27:54,789 --> 00:27:51,840
uh

786
00:27:55,830 --> 00:27:54,799
is is purely an on-ramp to something

787
00:27:57,510 --> 00:27:55,840
else

788
00:27:59,669 --> 00:27:57,520
that would come later

789
00:28:01,510 --> 00:27:59,679
um because you can

790
00:28:04,789 --> 00:28:01,520
you really have two choices so you can

791
00:28:07,590 --> 00:28:04,799
continue to look at it from that

792
00:28:10,149 --> 00:28:07,600
neatly packaged view

793
00:28:13,269 --> 00:28:10,159
and then continually reinforce

794
00:28:16,310 --> 00:28:13,279
your boundaries and barriers so that

795
00:28:18,310 --> 00:28:16,320
the walls you've constructed there stay

796
00:28:20,950 --> 00:28:18,320
strong and people do you know they

797
00:28:22,710 --> 00:28:20,960
really do or you can you can wrestle

798
00:28:25,110 --> 00:28:22,720
with that experience

799
00:28:27,990 --> 00:28:25,120
as you said and it stretches you and it

800
00:28:29,909 --> 00:28:28,000
causes you to sort of maybe look at

801
00:28:31,750 --> 00:28:29,919
that wall very closely and say okay wait

802
00:28:35,110 --> 00:28:31,760
there might be some cracks here

803
00:28:36,630 --> 00:28:35,120
that i wasn't aware of and and this way

804
00:28:38,310 --> 00:28:36,640
of looking at

805
00:28:40,549 --> 00:28:38,320
an experience that i had or the

806
00:28:42,870 --> 00:28:40,559
phenomenon that i'm reading about you

807
00:28:45,430 --> 00:28:42,880
know it for whatever reason

808
00:28:47,110 --> 00:28:45,440
just couching it as an angel or a demon

809
00:28:50,470 --> 00:28:47,120
something that is pro-human and

810
00:28:52,710 --> 00:28:50,480
anti-human pro-god anti-like those

811
00:28:54,630 --> 00:28:52,720
categories alone end up really just

812
00:28:56,470 --> 00:28:54,640
being insufficient

813
00:28:58,310 --> 00:28:56,480
at least i think so but but i know that

814
00:29:00,230 --> 00:28:58,320
there are there are those that will you

815
00:29:01,669 --> 00:29:00,240
know that for whatever reason maybe very

816
00:29:04,310 --> 00:29:01,679
good reasons we'll just sort of double

817
00:29:06,549 --> 00:29:04,320
down and and really hold tightly

818
00:29:08,470 --> 00:29:06,559
to that world view

819
00:29:09,830 --> 00:29:08,480
yeah and i think before we get into sort

820
00:29:13,909 --> 00:29:09,840
of the

821
00:29:15,350 --> 00:29:13,919
and where they came from

822
00:29:16,870 --> 00:29:15,360
and sort of walk through the history of

823
00:29:17,750 --> 00:29:16,880
that which i think will be helpful for

824
00:29:22,710 --> 00:29:17,760
people

825
00:29:26,470 --> 00:29:24,870
whenever you try and present a

826
00:29:28,710 --> 00:29:26,480
hypothesis for what's going on in

827
00:29:30,549 --> 00:29:28,720
reality you have to begin with a miracle

828
00:29:32,950 --> 00:29:30,559
to some degree you know

829
00:29:34,950 --> 00:29:32,960
any any postulation has to begin with if

830
00:29:37,590 --> 00:29:34,960
you give me this i will then build the

831
00:29:39,350 --> 00:29:37,600
rest for you right but because we can't

832
00:29:41,750 --> 00:29:39,360
touch that first thing

833
00:29:43,830 --> 00:29:41,760
that first primary thing we have to sort

834
00:29:44,710 --> 00:29:43,840
of dream up what it is and then go from

835
00:29:46,389 --> 00:29:44,720
there

836
00:29:49,190 --> 00:29:46,399
the the challenge with the angel and

837
00:29:50,950 --> 00:29:49,200
demon hypothesis in terms of taking a

838
00:29:52,549 --> 00:29:50,960
very sort of traditional christian

839
00:29:54,470 --> 00:29:52,559
perspective fundamentalist christian

840
00:29:55,990 --> 00:29:54,480
perspective because again later on we

841
00:29:58,630 --> 00:29:56,000
can get into

842
00:30:00,389 --> 00:29:58,640
how specific within the broad brush of

843
00:30:01,909 --> 00:30:00,399
christianity how specific that

844
00:30:04,710 --> 00:30:01,919
particular kind of

845
00:30:06,710 --> 00:30:04,720
um coining was specifically even amongst

846
00:30:07,590 --> 00:30:06,720
some of the federal government

847
00:30:08,549 --> 00:30:07,600
um

848
00:30:10,310 --> 00:30:08,559
but

849
00:30:11,830 --> 00:30:10,320
what i want to get at is that to some

850
00:30:14,149 --> 00:30:11,840
degree this just begs the question

851
00:30:16,070 --> 00:30:14,159
because if you say these are the angels

852
00:30:17,669 --> 00:30:16,080
and demons from the bible then you say

853
00:30:20,870 --> 00:30:17,679
okay well what are the angels and demons

854
00:30:23,510 --> 00:30:20,880
in the bible you know like um

855
00:30:24,870 --> 00:30:23,520
the bible is um

856
00:30:26,630 --> 00:30:24,880
you know with my biblical studies

857
00:30:27,669 --> 00:30:26,640
background i'm very happy to say that it

858
00:30:29,029 --> 00:30:27,679
is the

859
00:30:31,350 --> 00:30:29,039
record of

860
00:30:35,269 --> 00:30:31,360
human interaction with

861
00:30:38,149 --> 00:30:35,279
um phenomena over time recorded across

862
00:30:41,350 --> 00:30:38,159
time which includes both the experiences

863
00:30:43,669 --> 00:30:41,360
with the phenomena but also

864
00:30:45,510 --> 00:30:43,679
with these different phenomena but also

865
00:30:47,590 --> 00:30:45,520
with a shifting perspective amongst

866
00:30:49,590 --> 00:30:47,600
those different human groups so

867
00:30:51,909 --> 00:30:49,600
as much as in some circles that i was in

868
00:30:54,389 --> 00:30:51,919
in the past where they want to pretend

869
00:30:56,470 --> 00:30:54,399
that the bible is one book and it's put

870
00:31:00,230 --> 00:30:56,480
together nicely and reflects sort of one

871
00:31:01,669 --> 00:31:00,240
theology throughout one perspective

872
00:31:03,350 --> 00:31:01,679
not the case at all you know when you

873
00:31:05,029 --> 00:31:03,360
look at it you know from an historical

874
00:31:07,269 --> 00:31:05,039
critical point of view

875
00:31:08,789 --> 00:31:07,279
you do textual analysis you become aware

876
00:31:10,070 --> 00:31:08,799
of the context of the cultures where

877
00:31:11,909 --> 00:31:10,080
they were written

878
00:31:13,029 --> 00:31:11,919
very different cultures written over

879
00:31:15,669 --> 00:31:13,039
thousands of years right so we're

880
00:31:17,190 --> 00:31:15,679
talking about a long time

881
00:31:18,710 --> 00:31:17,200
and some of it borrowed from previous

882
00:31:20,950 --> 00:31:18,720
traditions even even though that will be

883
00:31:22,470 --> 00:31:20,960
that'll be um controversial for some

884
00:31:24,870 --> 00:31:22,480
people

885
00:31:26,710 --> 00:31:24,880
so all that is to say

886
00:31:29,430 --> 00:31:26,720
if that's the case we look at the bible

887
00:31:32,149 --> 00:31:29,440
that way or any kind of scriptural text

888
00:31:33,430 --> 00:31:32,159
then you see it as human beings trying

889
00:31:36,630 --> 00:31:33,440
to wrestle

890
00:31:38,470 --> 00:31:36,640
honestly and you know with sincerity

891
00:31:40,149 --> 00:31:38,480
with their god with their conception of

892
00:31:42,470 --> 00:31:40,159
god and with their conception of this

893
00:31:44,470 --> 00:31:42,480
these otherworldly entities and trying

894
00:31:46,710 --> 00:31:44,480
to make sense of what this means and

895
00:31:48,870 --> 00:31:46,720
from this they form a mythology and i

896
00:31:51,909 --> 00:31:48,880
mean mythology not in the sense of they

897
00:31:53,990 --> 00:31:51,919
make stuff up but it's a story by which

898
00:31:55,350 --> 00:31:54,000
we frame our reality for you and i to

899
00:31:56,870 --> 00:31:55,360
get up in the morning decide to brush

900
00:31:58,789 --> 00:31:56,880
brush our teeth

901
00:32:00,789 --> 00:31:58,799
we have to have some idea of what life's

902
00:32:03,110 --> 00:32:00,799
about and why we're doing it you know

903
00:32:05,110 --> 00:32:03,120
and presumably we it's even if it

904
00:32:07,590 --> 00:32:05,120
evolves it's it's an enduring myth

905
00:32:09,669 --> 00:32:07,600
because we do the same thing every day

906
00:32:11,509 --> 00:32:09,679
generally right so that's right we must

907
00:32:14,149 --> 00:32:11,519
even if it's in the background we all

908
00:32:16,149 --> 00:32:14,159
have this narrative framework by which

909
00:32:17,110 --> 00:32:16,159
we navigate our lives

910
00:32:18,549 --> 00:32:17,120
so

911
00:32:20,070 --> 00:32:18,559
again getting back to the angels and

912
00:32:22,230 --> 00:32:20,080
demons thing

913
00:32:24,149 --> 00:32:22,240
even if you think that's what they are

914
00:32:25,430 --> 00:32:24,159
even even if you think

915
00:32:26,870 --> 00:32:25,440
think that

916
00:32:29,269 --> 00:32:26,880
the question of whether or not you take

917
00:32:30,789 --> 00:32:29,279
the interpretation of a particular group

918
00:32:33,110 --> 00:32:30,799
at a particular time of what those

919
00:32:34,470 --> 00:32:33,120
experiences were i mean i'm very happy

920
00:32:36,789 --> 00:32:34,480
to say

921
00:32:38,710 --> 00:32:36,799
the bible is recording real experiences

922
00:32:40,070 --> 00:32:38,720
and and i've been in

923
00:32:41,909 --> 00:32:40,080
academic

924
00:32:43,430 --> 00:32:41,919
settings where the assumption was those

925
00:32:45,269 --> 00:32:43,440
weren't real experiences because we know

926
00:32:46,950 --> 00:32:45,279
those things can't happen

927
00:32:48,630 --> 00:32:46,960
i no longer believe that because i've

928
00:32:50,230 --> 00:32:48,640
some of my own experiences and knowing

929
00:32:52,630 --> 00:32:50,240
so many other people who've had these

930
00:32:54,710 --> 00:32:52,640
experiences so they're real experiences

931
00:32:56,549 --> 00:32:54,720
but the question of what they mean and

932
00:32:57,909 --> 00:32:56,559
what they are is a different matter

933
00:32:59,909 --> 00:32:57,919
entirely and i think that's partly what

934
00:33:01,990 --> 00:32:59,919
we're doing today is trying to separate

935
00:33:04,070 --> 00:33:02,000
those two matters yeah completely agree

936
00:33:06,230 --> 00:33:04,080
and and i would encourage anyone no

937
00:33:09,190 --> 00:33:06,240
matter where you are

938
00:33:10,950 --> 00:33:09,200
with this topic

939
00:33:12,789 --> 00:33:10,960
let's say that you are very firmly

940
00:33:15,110 --> 00:33:12,799
rooted in a biblical

941
00:33:16,789 --> 00:33:15,120
you know kind of context and worldview

942
00:33:19,750 --> 00:33:16,799
perspective

943
00:33:22,149 --> 00:33:19,760
go to that text and do look at how

944
00:33:25,430 --> 00:33:22,159
this issue is wrestled with over the

945
00:33:27,590 --> 00:33:25,440
span of that entire story

946
00:33:29,430 --> 00:33:27,600
because as you pointed out there is a

947
00:33:33,350 --> 00:33:29,440
variance there there is

948
00:33:36,310 --> 00:33:33,360
a changing narrative of of how these

949
00:33:38,789 --> 00:33:36,320
non-human entities are experienced

950
00:33:40,630 --> 00:33:38,799
recorded reflected on

951
00:33:42,470 --> 00:33:40,640
uh and that

952
00:33:44,230 --> 00:33:42,480
and it carries through as well so it's

953
00:33:46,310 --> 00:33:44,240
not just um you don't you can't just

954
00:33:48,470 --> 00:33:46,320
take a chapter from the old testament

955
00:33:50,149 --> 00:33:48,480
and say okay well that that that's how

956
00:33:51,990 --> 00:33:50,159
it was it's sort of fixed right there

957
00:33:52,789 --> 00:33:52,000
you actually can see in many places

958
00:33:53,669 --> 00:33:52,799
where

959
00:33:56,230 --> 00:33:53,679
uh

960
00:33:58,149 --> 00:33:56,240
in the new testament language they are

961
00:34:00,070 --> 00:33:58,159
they are reinterpreting

962
00:34:01,669 --> 00:34:00,080
reimagining

963
00:34:03,830 --> 00:34:01,679
what that what that

964
00:34:05,430 --> 00:34:03,840
story was like from

965
00:34:07,509 --> 00:34:05,440
the old testament you know they because

966
00:34:09,990 --> 00:34:07,519
it's part of their cultural framework as

967
00:34:12,069 --> 00:34:10,000
well which changed over time you know

968
00:34:14,230 --> 00:34:12,079
and maybe that's a very good segue

969
00:34:15,990 --> 00:34:14,240
uh you know sort of to to unpacking this

970
00:34:17,669 --> 00:34:16,000
a little bit more

971
00:34:19,190 --> 00:34:17,679
in that uh

972
00:34:21,990 --> 00:34:19,200
in something that maybe not everyone is

973
00:34:24,629 --> 00:34:22,000
particularly familiar with but the this

974
00:34:26,790 --> 00:34:24,639
you know where does

975
00:34:29,270 --> 00:34:26,800
our sort of modern notion and i mean i

976
00:34:31,270 --> 00:34:29,280
should say modern popular notion maybe

977
00:34:32,790 --> 00:34:31,280
best way to say it of angels and demons

978
00:34:35,349 --> 00:34:32,800
where does it that ultimately kind of

979
00:34:37,430 --> 00:34:35,359
trace back to if we're going really

980
00:34:39,030 --> 00:34:37,440
through the lens of the bible and the

981
00:34:41,030 --> 00:34:39,040
peoples of the bible

982
00:34:44,149 --> 00:34:41,040
you know where is this concept coming

983
00:34:45,909 --> 00:34:44,159
from and what ways has it changed

984
00:34:49,270 --> 00:34:45,919
over time

985
00:34:51,270 --> 00:34:49,280
in that text to now

986
00:34:53,510 --> 00:34:51,280
yeah and i think as we begin this

987
00:34:55,349 --> 00:34:53,520
journey i would just say again we're not

988
00:34:57,510 --> 00:34:55,359
here to try and invalidate anyone's

989
00:34:58,870 --> 00:34:57,520
personal experience or interpretation we

990
00:35:01,190 --> 00:34:58,880
all have them

991
00:35:03,190 --> 00:35:01,200
um it's like we talked about

992
00:35:04,310 --> 00:35:03,200
nathan and exo have theirs as well and

993
00:35:05,750 --> 00:35:04,320
they're different than they were five

994
00:35:07,510 --> 00:35:05,760
years ago and they'll be different again

995
00:35:09,430 --> 00:35:07,520
in five years from now so we're not

996
00:35:11,510 --> 00:35:09,440
pretending that we are

997
00:35:13,030 --> 00:35:11,520
you know above that because it's just

998
00:35:14,550 --> 00:35:13,040
part of the human condition you know you

999
00:35:15,910 --> 00:35:14,560
can't you can't get up in the morning

1000
00:35:16,950 --> 00:35:15,920
and go about your day without a

1001
00:35:18,470 --> 00:35:16,960
narrative

1002
00:35:20,310 --> 00:35:18,480
framework you know

1003
00:35:22,069 --> 00:35:20,320
but that said

1004
00:35:24,630 --> 00:35:22,079
um you know

1005
00:35:27,109 --> 00:35:24,640
what often happens in history is that

1006
00:35:29,109 --> 00:35:27,119
when different groups come into power i

1007
00:35:30,470 --> 00:35:29,119
mean when they have societal power and

1008
00:35:32,790 --> 00:35:30,480
authority right

1009
00:35:34,470 --> 00:35:32,800
and by that we basically mean

1010
00:35:37,270 --> 00:35:34,480
um they have the power of the state

1011
00:35:39,030 --> 00:35:37,280
behind them right um

1012
00:35:40,710 --> 00:35:39,040
the founding fathers of our country you

1013
00:35:42,630 --> 00:35:40,720
know had to wrestle with how that had

1014
00:35:44,230 --> 00:35:42,640
been a problem in pr in in europe for

1015
00:35:46,230 --> 00:35:44,240
instance you know and trying to separate

1016
00:35:49,030 --> 00:35:46,240
this all and how do you guarantee the

1017
00:35:52,230 --> 00:35:49,040
freedom of an of an individual to pursue

1018
00:35:54,710 --> 00:35:52,240
you know life liberty and happiness um

1019
00:35:57,030 --> 00:35:54,720
while also allowing for spirituality but

1020
00:35:58,950 --> 00:35:57,040
not not centralizing it with an estate

1021
00:36:01,109 --> 00:35:58,960
kind of thing right

1022
00:36:03,430 --> 00:36:01,119
so what happened was you know initially

1023
00:36:05,750 --> 00:36:03,440
that the term demon is sort of like a

1024
00:36:08,310 --> 00:36:05,760
co-opting of a much older

1025
00:36:10,069 --> 00:36:08,320
uh sort of term from greek mythology and

1026
00:36:11,829 --> 00:36:10,079
even before that

1027
00:36:13,750 --> 00:36:11,839
that we'll we'll use the term daemon it

1028
00:36:15,270 --> 00:36:13,760
can it can sometimes be pronounced demon

1029
00:36:16,550 --> 00:36:15,280
as well but so we're clear to people

1030
00:36:18,630 --> 00:36:16,560
which one we're talking about i'm going

1031
00:36:21,430 --> 00:36:18,640
to say damon so when i say damon i'm

1032
00:36:24,310 --> 00:36:21,440
referring to sort of the greek mythology

1033
00:36:25,670 --> 00:36:24,320
and these were figures who were um

1034
00:36:28,550 --> 00:36:25,680
and i'll get in a second to how that got

1035
00:36:30,470 --> 00:36:28,560
co-opted later but these this initial

1036
00:36:33,190 --> 00:36:30,480
sort of understanding was that

1037
00:36:34,790 --> 00:36:33,200
there are entities intelligences beings

1038
00:36:36,630 --> 00:36:34,800
that people encounter

1039
00:36:39,109 --> 00:36:36,640
that are sort of somewhere between

1040
00:36:40,790 --> 00:36:39,119
divine and and mortal you know or they

1041
00:36:42,870 --> 00:36:40,800
they have some characteristics to seem

1042
00:36:45,190 --> 00:36:42,880
to be like they live in both worlds

1043
00:36:46,950 --> 00:36:45,200
they're in a liminal frame

1044
00:36:49,750 --> 00:36:46,960
and um

1045
00:36:51,349 --> 00:36:49,760
and and there was a really a range you

1046
00:36:53,510 --> 00:36:51,359
know it's not like they were either good

1047
00:36:55,750 --> 00:36:53,520
or bad or one or the other it's that

1048
00:36:57,109 --> 00:36:55,760
they just like you go to the supermarket

1049
00:36:58,870 --> 00:36:57,119
you get a range of people with different

1050
00:37:00,790 --> 00:36:58,880
backgrounds and

1051
00:37:02,470 --> 00:37:00,800
um a range of whether you not would call

1052
00:37:03,910 --> 00:37:02,480
them good or bad people or whatever you

1053
00:37:06,150 --> 00:37:03,920
know if we realize that's kind of

1054
00:37:07,670 --> 00:37:06,160
simplistic and black and white um well

1055
00:37:09,430 --> 00:37:07,680
in the same way that the original

1056
00:37:11,349 --> 00:37:09,440
understanding was

1057
00:37:13,910 --> 00:37:11,359
that there was a breadth and depth to

1058
00:37:15,510 --> 00:37:13,920
these these beings um that sort of

1059
00:37:16,390 --> 00:37:15,520
covered the gamut

1060
00:37:17,990 --> 00:37:16,400
um

1061
00:37:21,030 --> 00:37:18,000
and there was also sort of this this

1062
00:37:22,710 --> 00:37:21,040
sense uh sometimes that great figures

1063
00:37:24,790 --> 00:37:22,720
human figures when they died heroic

1064
00:37:27,349 --> 00:37:24,800
figures would become like demonic

1065
00:37:29,270 --> 00:37:27,359
figures for people in the future

1066
00:37:32,069 --> 00:37:29,280
um and there was also a sense of kind of

1067
00:37:34,550 --> 00:37:32,079
like a a protecting or a guardian angel

1068
00:37:37,990 --> 00:37:34,560
or demon or demon kind of notion as well

1069
00:37:39,829 --> 00:37:38,000
that you um

1070
00:37:41,270 --> 00:37:39,839
you know you're born with a demon that's

1071
00:37:43,030 --> 00:37:41,280
with you through your whole life kind of

1072
00:37:44,790 --> 00:37:43,040
thing and is guiding you and giving you

1073
00:37:46,630 --> 00:37:44,800
feedback and whatnot

1074
00:37:49,109 --> 00:37:46,640
um

1075
00:37:51,589 --> 00:37:49,119
so but what happened was when

1076
00:37:53,990 --> 00:37:51,599
when christianity kind of rose to power

1077
00:37:56,069 --> 00:37:54,000
uh in the roman empire

1078
00:37:57,829 --> 00:37:56,079
um what often happens is that traditions

1079
00:37:59,430 --> 00:37:57,839
that are already existing

1080
00:38:01,510 --> 00:37:59,440
end up being sort of brought into the

1081
00:38:02,710 --> 00:38:01,520
mix because if it's if it's a tradition

1082
00:38:04,390 --> 00:38:02,720
that's already

1083
00:38:05,829 --> 00:38:04,400
really embedded in a culture it's hard

1084
00:38:07,109 --> 00:38:05,839
to just say okay you can't do that

1085
00:38:09,270 --> 00:38:07,119
anymore right

1086
00:38:11,829 --> 00:38:09,280
so instead it gets altered it gets

1087
00:38:14,950 --> 00:38:11,839
modified it mutates and becomes part of

1088
00:38:17,270 --> 00:38:14,960
the of the the new dominant system so

1089
00:38:19,430 --> 00:38:17,280
you know when you have constantine

1090
00:38:20,630 --> 00:38:19,440
you know adopting christianity and then

1091
00:38:22,390 --> 00:38:20,640
sort of saying this is going to be the

1092
00:38:24,630 --> 00:38:22,400
official religion of the empire then

1093
00:38:26,950 --> 00:38:24,640
what happens is that other aspects of

1094
00:38:29,109 --> 00:38:26,960
the the cultural mix

1095
00:38:30,470 --> 00:38:29,119
get brought in as well so

1096
00:38:32,390 --> 00:38:30,480
even things like everything from like a

1097
00:38:34,069 --> 00:38:32,400
christmas tree right it was was it was a

1098
00:38:35,829 --> 00:38:34,079
part of a pagan tradition but got kind

1099
00:38:37,910 --> 00:38:35,839
of brought in and now if you were to

1100
00:38:39,430 --> 00:38:37,920
tell a modern american you know

1101
00:38:41,030 --> 00:38:39,440
evangelical that a christmas tree was

1102
00:38:42,550 --> 00:38:41,040
originally a pagan ceremony they would

1103
00:38:44,390 --> 00:38:42,560
be you know horrified and shocked but

1104
00:38:45,670 --> 00:38:44,400
that's the truth right

1105
00:38:48,230 --> 00:38:45,680
in the same way

1106
00:38:49,990 --> 00:38:48,240
the demons that you know then then the

1107
00:38:51,910 --> 00:38:50,000
christian sort of hierarchy had to

1108
00:38:53,510 --> 00:38:51,920
figure out the elite in and that now

1109
00:38:55,910 --> 00:38:53,520
only had power not only in the church

1110
00:38:57,670 --> 00:38:55,920
but over the society as well they were

1111
00:38:58,790 --> 00:38:57,680
the lawmaker the judge

1112
00:39:00,150 --> 00:38:58,800
everything

1113
00:39:04,069 --> 00:39:00,160
they had to figure out what do we do

1114
00:39:06,310 --> 00:39:04,079
with these demonic figures and um

1115
00:39:08,710 --> 00:39:06,320
so there was a notion in christianity

1116
00:39:10,390 --> 00:39:08,720
this sort of creation story where

1117
00:39:13,430 --> 00:39:10,400
as you alluded to

1118
00:39:15,829 --> 00:39:13,440
um there was one you know really amazing

1119
00:39:17,589 --> 00:39:15,839
creature one of the story goes like the

1120
00:39:19,750 --> 00:39:17,599
most beautiful and amazing and powerful

1121
00:39:22,470 --> 00:39:19,760
creature that god had ever

1122
00:39:25,030 --> 00:39:22,480
created so much so that you know kind of

1123
00:39:27,190 --> 00:39:25,040
got a big head about him and and sort of

1124
00:39:29,589 --> 00:39:27,200
rebelled against god and was cast out of

1125
00:39:32,310 --> 00:39:29,599
heaven right this is the creation myth

1126
00:39:34,790 --> 00:39:32,320
and along with him a bunch of the other

1127
00:39:37,270 --> 00:39:34,800
angelic figures that were on the scene

1128
00:39:39,190 --> 00:39:37,280
also sort of like sided with the satanic

1129
00:39:40,790 --> 00:39:39,200
figure and by the way speaking of

1130
00:39:43,190 --> 00:39:40,800
shifting perspectives

1131
00:39:45,030 --> 00:39:43,200
that satan figure in early sort of

1132
00:39:46,390 --> 00:39:45,040
hebrew scriptures

1133
00:39:48,150 --> 00:39:46,400
was was

1134
00:39:50,390 --> 00:39:48,160
coined very differently sort of part of

1135
00:39:51,910 --> 00:39:50,400
the council of the godhead

1136
00:39:53,750 --> 00:39:51,920
really gets complex once you really look

1137
00:39:56,390 --> 00:39:53,760
at it

1138
00:39:58,550 --> 00:39:56,400
but anyway so the idea is that you know

1139
00:40:02,069 --> 00:39:58,560
this the satanic figure was cast out of

1140
00:40:04,630 --> 00:40:02,079
heaven uh you know damned to hell this

1141
00:40:06,069 --> 00:40:04,640
this different landscape this different

1142
00:40:07,829 --> 00:40:06,079
domain or realm

1143
00:40:09,349 --> 00:40:07,839
and some of the angels went with him

1144
00:40:10,790 --> 00:40:09,359
they were cast out that sort of aligned

1145
00:40:12,870 --> 00:40:10,800
with him

1146
00:40:15,109 --> 00:40:12,880
and then left in heaven was god and the

1147
00:40:17,510 --> 00:40:15,119
the angels that stayed on the good side

1148
00:40:19,030 --> 00:40:17,520
so these these are the these are the

1149
00:40:22,470 --> 00:40:19,040
the

1150
00:40:24,230 --> 00:40:22,480
that were coined in that tradition so

1151
00:40:25,990 --> 00:40:24,240
what they what what christianity did

1152
00:40:28,150 --> 00:40:26,000
when it came into power

1153
00:40:30,230 --> 00:40:28,160
was say was said okay yes there are

1154
00:40:31,910 --> 00:40:30,240
demons but they're actually

1155
00:40:34,390 --> 00:40:31,920
all one of these two types they're

1156
00:40:36,550 --> 00:40:34,400
either angels or demons according to

1157
00:40:38,309 --> 00:40:36,560
this creation myth and that's how that

1158
00:40:40,630 --> 00:40:38,319
kind of got co-opted and shifted and

1159
00:40:42,710 --> 00:40:40,640
mutated over time

1160
00:40:44,710 --> 00:40:42,720
yeah it's a fascinating

1161
00:40:46,150 --> 00:40:44,720
story and i would encourage people

1162
00:40:48,870 --> 00:40:46,160
there's just a lot of really great

1163
00:40:52,150 --> 00:40:48,880
material out there and it would take way

1164
00:40:53,750 --> 00:40:52,160
more than an hour and a half episode uh

1165
00:40:56,630 --> 00:40:53,760
to unpack this but so i would encourage

1166
00:40:58,550 --> 00:40:56,640
folks to to really uh dive into this

1167
00:41:01,430 --> 00:40:58,560
subject there's some great content on

1168
00:41:03,829 --> 00:41:01,440
youtube on the history of

1169
00:41:05,430 --> 00:41:03,839
demonic entities

1170
00:41:07,990 --> 00:41:05,440
also i would encourage folks to look at

1171
00:41:09,430 --> 00:41:08,000
the influence of hellenism which was

1172
00:41:10,550 --> 00:41:09,440
greek culture

1173
00:41:20,470 --> 00:41:10,560
on

1174
00:41:22,710 --> 00:41:20,480
christianity itself because

1175
00:41:24,790 --> 00:41:22,720
you really cannot separate

1176
00:41:26,150 --> 00:41:24,800
those things that it's all in the mix

1177
00:41:29,910 --> 00:41:26,160
there um

1178
00:41:33,990 --> 00:41:32,390
for a believer i honestly think it

1179
00:41:36,630 --> 00:41:34,000
actually provides a richer landscape to

1180
00:41:38,950 --> 00:41:36,640
your belief to understand that that was

1181
00:41:41,270 --> 00:41:38,960
sort of the world in which these texts

1182
00:41:42,710 --> 00:41:41,280
emerged

1183
00:41:45,190 --> 00:41:42,720
and for those who aren't a believer i

1184
00:41:47,109 --> 00:41:45,200
think it will provide you with a little

1185
00:41:49,190 --> 00:41:47,119
greater clarity on

1186
00:41:51,990 --> 00:41:49,200
how some of these ideas

1187
00:41:54,630 --> 00:41:52,000
sort of came to be and adopted uh and

1188
00:41:56,309 --> 00:41:54,640
and and changed over time um i'm

1189
00:41:58,790 --> 00:41:56,319
particularly struck you know talking

1190
00:42:03,510 --> 00:41:58,800
about changing over time

1191
00:42:06,069 --> 00:42:03,520
the power of this idea of monotheism

1192
00:42:07,030 --> 00:42:06,079
and and the adoption of monotheism

1193
00:42:08,550 --> 00:42:07,040
uh

1194
00:42:10,390 --> 00:42:08,560
by constantine

1195
00:42:11,589 --> 00:42:10,400
and then really that becoming kind of

1196
00:42:14,069 --> 00:42:11,599
the dominant

1197
00:42:17,109 --> 00:42:14,079
uh worldview and theology in the western

1198
00:42:18,550 --> 00:42:17,119
uh in what western societies

1199
00:42:22,069 --> 00:42:18,560
you know

1200
00:42:24,069 --> 00:42:22,079
when you kind of go that down that path

1201
00:42:25,750 --> 00:42:24,079
anything that is against

1202
00:42:28,790 --> 00:42:25,760
uh that

1203
00:42:30,950 --> 00:42:28,800
monotheistic idea that is against god

1204
00:42:33,990 --> 00:42:30,960
and many in many cases was always it was

1205
00:42:36,550 --> 00:42:34,000
associated the state so it would be you

1206
00:42:38,230 --> 00:42:36,560
know whoever was uh the emperor or the

1207
00:42:41,990 --> 00:42:38,240
king you know they were very closely

1208
00:42:44,230 --> 00:42:42,000
aligned uh to the church uh you know so

1209
00:42:45,990 --> 00:42:44,240
anything that is not in that category

1210
00:42:47,990 --> 00:42:46,000
not in can we talk about this notion of

1211
00:42:50,710 --> 00:42:48,000
buckets and frameworks if you're not in

1212
00:42:52,309 --> 00:42:50,720
that category that very narrow slice

1213
00:42:54,150 --> 00:42:52,319
then you are

1214
00:42:55,589 --> 00:42:54,160
just by ex you know by definition you're

1215
00:42:58,309 --> 00:42:55,599
not you know you're you're on the

1216
00:43:02,390 --> 00:42:58,319
opposition and so as uh you know the

1217
00:43:04,309 --> 00:43:02,400
roman culture advanced uh into europe uh

1218
00:43:05,990 --> 00:43:04,319
you know and and had to

1219
00:43:09,990 --> 00:43:06,000
intermingle with the cultures that were

1220
00:43:10,710 --> 00:43:10,000
there you know they are taking on uh

1221
00:43:13,109 --> 00:43:10,720
the

1222
00:43:15,430 --> 00:43:13,119
north norse mythology and you know

1223
00:43:18,230 --> 00:43:15,440
putting those things as you know

1224
00:43:20,630 --> 00:43:18,240
oftentimes demoting those deities into

1225
00:43:21,990 --> 00:43:20,640
into the demonic category

1226
00:43:24,230 --> 00:43:22,000
as well so this is just sort of a

1227
00:43:25,349 --> 00:43:24,240
natural way in which

1228
00:43:28,230 --> 00:43:25,359
uh

1229
00:43:30,550 --> 00:43:28,240
thought frames you know really have a

1230
00:43:33,109 --> 00:43:30,560
life of their own and begin acting in

1231
00:43:36,950 --> 00:43:33,119
the world uh to parse

1232
00:43:38,710 --> 00:43:36,960
experience and categorize uh different

1233
00:43:40,390 --> 00:43:38,720
groups

1234
00:43:42,150 --> 00:43:40,400
so all that being said

1235
00:43:43,510 --> 00:43:42,160
which is you know quite a bit there to

1236
00:43:46,150 --> 00:43:43,520
kind of think about again we could do a

1237
00:43:47,990 --> 00:43:46,160
lot more on it i i know we want to talk

1238
00:43:49,750 --> 00:43:48,000
about something

1239
00:43:51,990 --> 00:43:49,760
kind of much more specific and this

1240
00:43:55,109 --> 00:43:52,000
isn't this is very interesting to me

1241
00:43:57,109 --> 00:43:55,119
uh and that is the uh the the sort of

1242
00:43:59,990 --> 00:43:57,119
rumors or

1243
00:44:01,349 --> 00:44:00,000
even uh in many places reported as true

1244
00:44:03,910 --> 00:44:01,359
uh

1245
00:44:07,430 --> 00:44:03,920
preponderance of belief in some circles

1246
00:44:09,670 --> 00:44:07,440
of the us intelligence community uh

1247
00:44:11,670 --> 00:44:09,680
that you know that this is what what it

1248
00:44:14,230 --> 00:44:11,680
really is that it is angels and demons

1249
00:44:15,349 --> 00:44:14,240
that it is a very strongly held sort of

1250
00:44:16,309 --> 00:44:15,359
christian

1251
00:44:17,829 --> 00:44:16,319
uh

1252
00:44:19,510 --> 00:44:17,839
um

1253
00:44:21,990 --> 00:44:19,520
there's an end times knit narrative

1254
00:44:23,589 --> 00:44:22,000
there's very much this coming apocalypse

1255
00:44:24,550 --> 00:44:23,599
you know all of these sort of loaded

1256
00:44:27,430 --> 00:44:24,560
terms

1257
00:44:28,870 --> 00:44:27,440
seem to be hel closely held beliefs by

1258
00:44:30,950 --> 00:44:28,880
at least some

1259
00:44:33,430 --> 00:44:30,960
of the folks who might be closest to the

1260
00:44:36,950 --> 00:44:33,440
study of what this really is

1261
00:44:37,910 --> 00:44:36,960
what what do you think about that

1262
00:44:39,829 --> 00:44:37,920
yeah well

1263
00:44:42,230 --> 00:44:39,839
what's interesting

1264
00:44:43,430 --> 00:44:42,240
about that is that again we can't

1265
00:44:45,910 --> 00:44:43,440
separate

1266
00:44:48,470 --> 00:44:45,920
the interpretation from

1267
00:44:50,390 --> 00:44:48,480
the um the landscape that these people

1268
00:44:51,589 --> 00:44:50,400
live within right and

1269
00:44:54,390 --> 00:44:51,599
and we want to make it really clear

1270
00:44:56,150 --> 00:44:54,400
we're not mocking anyone for again for

1271
00:44:59,270 --> 00:44:56,160
having an interpretive grid we all have

1272
00:45:01,510 --> 00:44:59,280
it it's part of being a human being and

1273
00:45:03,990 --> 00:45:01,520
usually what happens is

1274
00:45:05,829 --> 00:45:04,000
any modern culture tends to look back at

1275
00:45:07,670 --> 00:45:05,839
the past and sort of mock and laugh at

1276
00:45:10,630 --> 00:45:07,680
the previous iterations

1277
00:45:12,710 --> 00:45:10,640
only because the current mythology is

1278
00:45:14,150 --> 00:45:12,720
worn so tightly that you don't see it

1279
00:45:16,470 --> 00:45:14,160
it's the pair of glasses you're wearing

1280
00:45:18,470 --> 00:45:16,480
constantly so you think you finally

1281
00:45:21,510 --> 00:45:18,480
achieved objectivity where every

1282
00:45:24,150 --> 00:45:21,520
previous culture has not um again with

1283
00:45:26,470 --> 00:45:24,160
my integral background i'm kind of uh

1284
00:45:29,109 --> 00:45:26,480
you know immunized against that that

1285
00:45:31,270 --> 00:45:29,119
notion that i know it keeps rolling out

1286
00:45:33,109 --> 00:45:31,280
uh and that that's an iterative pro

1287
00:45:35,750 --> 00:45:33,119
editor of process that keeps happening

1288
00:45:37,750 --> 00:45:35,760
that's emergent and there will be new

1289
00:45:39,430 --> 00:45:37,760
ways of seeing reality that will be

1290
00:45:40,550 --> 00:45:39,440
better and more transcendent and more

1291
00:45:42,790 --> 00:45:40,560
inclusive

1292
00:45:44,630 --> 00:45:42,800
in the in the future than i can i or

1293
00:45:46,390 --> 00:45:44,640
anyone else can imagine yet that's just

1294
00:45:47,430 --> 00:45:46,400
the way it goes

1295
00:45:49,750 --> 00:45:47,440
so

1296
00:45:53,510 --> 00:45:49,760
with that in mind again that everyone

1297
00:45:55,030 --> 00:45:53,520
grows up in an era when there's cultural

1298
00:45:57,430 --> 00:45:55,040
frameworks all around them whether

1299
00:45:59,829 --> 00:45:57,440
they're aware of them or not

1300
00:46:02,230 --> 00:45:59,839
we have to remember that these because

1301
00:46:04,470 --> 00:46:02,240
this is interesting i've had people

1302
00:46:06,710 --> 00:46:04,480
after i did the one podcast episode on

1303
00:46:08,870 --> 00:46:06,720
the collins elite and

1304
00:46:10,630 --> 00:46:08,880
um which is the sort of unofficial name

1305
00:46:13,030 --> 00:46:10,640
that was given to this group of people

1306
00:46:15,270 --> 00:46:13,040
within the the us intelligence community

1307
00:46:17,190 --> 00:46:15,280
who came to believe that these were or

1308
00:46:20,470 --> 00:46:17,200
these were demons right

1309
00:46:21,750 --> 00:46:20,480
so it's a really fascinating case um

1310
00:46:25,829 --> 00:46:21,760
and

1311
00:46:28,630 --> 00:46:25,839
know surely these people with like you

1312
00:46:30,710 --> 00:46:28,640
know security clearances and sometimes

1313
00:46:32,870 --> 00:46:30,720
high degrees of education

1314
00:46:34,870 --> 00:46:32,880
couldn't be fooled just by interpretive

1315
00:46:36,309 --> 00:46:34,880
grids and and i want to say to people

1316
00:46:37,750 --> 00:46:36,319
yes they can

1317
00:46:39,270 --> 00:46:37,760
i mean not that there weren't real

1318
00:46:41,430 --> 00:46:39,280
events and we'll get to those we want to

1319
00:46:44,290 --> 00:46:41,440
really get into that today

1320
00:46:45,510 --> 00:46:44,300
but don't dismiss or

1321
00:46:47,270 --> 00:46:45,520
[Music]

1322
00:46:49,349 --> 00:46:47,280
look the other way from

1323
00:46:51,109 --> 00:46:49,359
how powerful these interpretive grids

1324
00:46:53,910 --> 00:46:51,119
are they

1325
00:46:56,470 --> 00:46:53,920
an experience is one thing how you land

1326
00:46:58,390 --> 00:46:56,480
it ground it make sense of it

1327
00:46:59,589 --> 00:46:58,400
is another thing it has as much to do

1328
00:47:01,190 --> 00:46:59,599
with your interpretive grid as it does

1329
00:47:02,950 --> 00:47:01,200
the experience itself

1330
00:47:09,750 --> 00:47:02,960
so

1331
00:47:11,750 --> 00:47:09,760
i think when you look back at it as

1332
00:47:13,430 --> 00:47:11,760
objectively as possible and by the way

1333
00:47:14,390 --> 00:47:13,440
nick redfern wrote a book called final

1334
00:47:16,309 --> 00:47:14,400
events

1335
00:47:19,430 --> 00:47:16,319
um speaking of the sort of apocalyptic

1336
00:47:21,430 --> 00:47:19,440
nature you used to touched on um

1337
00:47:23,349 --> 00:47:21,440
that that books uh comes highly

1338
00:47:25,190 --> 00:47:23,359
recommended he he documented a lot of

1339
00:47:26,870 --> 00:47:25,200
this where he and he kept an objective

1340
00:47:29,109 --> 00:47:26,880
perspective he didn't adopt the

1341
00:47:31,430 --> 00:47:29,119
perspective of the collins elite

1342
00:47:33,750 --> 00:47:31,440
he tried to just talk about the

1343
00:47:35,270 --> 00:47:33,760
experiences the events historically and

1344
00:47:36,630 --> 00:47:35,280
then what they concluded and why they

1345
00:47:38,630 --> 00:47:36,640
concluded that

1346
00:47:40,950 --> 00:47:38,640
and what you come away with as i said in

1347
00:47:43,030 --> 00:47:40,960
that podcast episode is

1348
00:47:45,910 --> 00:47:43,040
a lot of correlation but not necessarily

1349
00:47:47,589 --> 00:47:45,920
causation in my mind and i think that

1350
00:47:49,190 --> 00:47:47,599
from my perspective what the collins

1351
00:47:52,549 --> 00:47:49,200
elite did a lot of

1352
00:47:54,309 --> 00:47:52,559
was assuming one implies the other

1353
00:47:57,430 --> 00:47:54,319
so you had things like

1354
00:48:02,230 --> 00:47:59,829
it sort of goes back to aleister crowley

1355
00:48:05,030 --> 00:48:02,240
you know in the late 19th century and

1356
00:48:06,710 --> 00:48:05,040
and um he's a controversial figure

1357
00:48:08,309 --> 00:48:06,720
people in occultic circles kind of like

1358
00:48:09,030 --> 00:48:08,319
he's kind of a heroic figure who tried

1359
00:48:14,710 --> 00:48:09,040
to

1360
00:48:15,829 --> 00:48:14,720
dimensions and make contact with um with

1361
00:48:17,589 --> 00:48:15,839
beings

1362
00:48:19,430 --> 00:48:17,599
so that's one framing right people see

1363
00:48:20,870 --> 00:48:19,440
him as a kind of heroic pioneering

1364
00:48:22,630 --> 00:48:20,880
figure but there's some people in

1365
00:48:25,109 --> 00:48:22,640
christian traditions who think

1366
00:48:27,190 --> 00:48:25,119
that's a foolish man who is messing with

1367
00:48:28,870 --> 00:48:27,200
demonic entities that never ends well

1368
00:48:30,230 --> 00:48:28,880
for you right so

1369
00:48:32,309 --> 00:48:30,240
um

1370
00:48:35,109 --> 00:48:32,319
and uh so

1371
00:48:37,109 --> 00:48:35,119
he began some stuff um in the late 19th

1372
00:48:39,270 --> 00:48:37,119
century reaching across and

1373
00:48:40,069 --> 00:48:39,280
and part of the narrative that began to

1374
00:48:42,230 --> 00:48:40,079
be

1375
00:48:44,870 --> 00:48:42,240
reinterpreted again we talked about

1376
00:48:47,670 --> 00:48:44,880
christian traditions um you know

1377
00:48:48,470 --> 00:48:47,680
uh and hellenistic uh you know aspects

1378
00:48:50,230 --> 00:48:48,480
king

1379
00:48:52,309 --> 00:48:50,240
boiled into the mix

1380
00:48:55,430 --> 00:48:52,319
in the same way in the

1381
00:48:58,390 --> 00:48:55,440
uh you know the 40s or so 40s and 50s

1382
00:49:00,470 --> 00:48:58,400
with the collins elite um you know they

1383
00:49:02,790 --> 00:49:00,480
they looked back at things maybe there

1384
00:49:04,309 --> 00:49:02,800
was a portal opened by by aleister

1385
00:49:06,390 --> 00:49:04,319
crowley they look back at these historic

1386
00:49:08,150 --> 00:49:06,400
events where people were trying to reach

1387
00:49:09,910 --> 00:49:08,160
across and

1388
00:49:11,270 --> 00:49:09,920
even if they thought

1389
00:49:13,589 --> 00:49:11,280
they were well-meaning and we're trying

1390
00:49:15,670 --> 00:49:13,599
to just reach contact other beings from

1391
00:49:18,470 --> 00:49:15,680
the christian fundamentalist perspective

1392
00:49:20,309 --> 00:49:18,480
the only door you're knocking on is is

1393
00:49:22,470 --> 00:49:20,319
the satanic realm the doors of hell the

1394
00:49:24,630 --> 00:49:22,480
gates of hell right and and so they

1395
00:49:26,390 --> 00:49:24,640
believe that crowley

1396
00:49:28,230 --> 00:49:26,400
opened that portal right and so that

1397
00:49:31,030 --> 00:49:28,240
could have create cracked open the door

1398
00:49:32,710 --> 00:49:31,040
for spiritual entities to come in

1399
00:49:34,790 --> 00:49:32,720
and then you have people like jack

1400
00:49:38,710 --> 00:49:34,800
parsons uh later on

1401
00:49:40,710 --> 00:49:38,720
uh who were devotees of crowley who also

1402
00:49:42,150 --> 00:49:40,720
was was he had his own rocket company

1403
00:49:44,630 --> 00:49:42,160
and and worked for you know was

1404
00:49:46,549 --> 00:49:44,640
developed rockets for nasa and stuff was

1405
00:49:48,790 --> 00:49:46,559
very intelligent guy with a with a high

1406
00:49:50,470 --> 00:49:48,800
security clearance and yet he he had

1407
00:49:51,990 --> 00:49:50,480
these kind of occultic practices in the

1408
00:49:52,630 --> 00:49:52,000
background right that he was interested

1409
00:49:53,829 --> 00:49:52,640
in

1410
00:49:54,950 --> 00:49:53,839
um

1411
00:49:59,510 --> 00:49:54,960
and

1412
00:50:02,470 --> 00:49:59,520
we even have people like kenneth arnold

1413
00:50:03,430 --> 00:50:02,480
the man who saw the first saucers right

1414
00:50:05,829 --> 00:50:03,440
uh

1415
00:50:07,510 --> 00:50:05,839
around mount rainier this sort of was

1416
00:50:09,430 --> 00:50:07,520
the birth of the entire sort of 20th

1417
00:50:12,710 --> 00:50:09,440
century flying saucer

1418
00:50:13,670 --> 00:50:12,720
thing that took off in the u.s right um

1419
00:50:15,349 --> 00:50:13,680
he

1420
00:50:17,190 --> 00:50:15,359
actually was someone that knew jack

1421
00:50:18,790 --> 00:50:17,200
parsons and so

1422
00:50:20,630 --> 00:50:18,800
what happened is the collins elite

1423
00:50:22,150 --> 00:50:20,640
started started ticking off boxes right

1424
00:50:24,309 --> 00:50:22,160
they said aha

1425
00:50:25,990 --> 00:50:24,319
jack parsons was a devotee of aleister

1426
00:50:28,390 --> 00:50:26,000
crowley right

1427
00:50:30,390 --> 00:50:28,400
kenneth arnold knew jack parsons and so

1428
00:50:31,829 --> 00:50:30,400
they they start seeing like this

1429
00:50:34,230 --> 00:50:31,839
nefarious

1430
00:50:35,510 --> 00:50:34,240
causal link between these different

1431
00:50:37,829 --> 00:50:35,520
figures

1432
00:50:39,510 --> 00:50:37,839
and we have to we have to say some

1433
00:50:42,069 --> 00:50:39,520
people had negative experiences some

1434
00:50:43,990 --> 00:50:42,079
people really had um you know scary

1435
00:50:46,309 --> 00:50:44,000
experiences with entities they perceived

1436
00:50:49,589 --> 00:50:46,319
as nefarious and so

1437
00:50:51,750 --> 00:50:49,599
and you know for jack parsons um there's

1438
00:50:53,589 --> 00:50:51,760
his famous you know how his life ended

1439
00:50:55,589 --> 00:50:53,599
is kind of famous because or infamous

1440
00:50:57,750 --> 00:50:55,599
depending on your point of view because

1441
00:50:59,270 --> 00:50:57,760
there was an explosion and he died you

1442
00:51:01,270 --> 00:50:59,280
know got to got as far as the hospital

1443
00:51:03,190 --> 00:51:01,280
but died there

1444
00:51:04,470 --> 00:51:03,200
some people believed that he was again

1445
00:51:06,069 --> 00:51:04,480
trying to

1446
00:51:07,589 --> 00:51:06,079
engage in some sort of a cultic practice

1447
00:51:10,230 --> 00:51:07,599
and ended up opening a portal which

1448
00:51:12,549 --> 00:51:10,240
caused an explosion and killed him

1449
00:51:14,470 --> 00:51:12,559
again from the fundamentalist christian

1450
00:51:16,390 --> 00:51:14,480
perspective held by summon the collins

1451
00:51:18,150 --> 00:51:16,400
elite most of them

1452
00:51:20,710 --> 00:51:18,160
again even if you think you're doing

1453
00:51:22,390 --> 00:51:20,720
something funny or fun or exciting

1454
00:51:24,069 --> 00:51:22,400
it never ends well for you because these

1455
00:51:26,470 --> 00:51:24,079
are deceptive entities right that's

1456
00:51:28,870 --> 00:51:26,480
that's a key part that they're deceptive

1457
00:51:30,710 --> 00:51:28,880
so he died in this explosion some people

1458
00:51:32,230 --> 00:51:30,720
look at it like perhaps he was engaged

1459
00:51:33,589 --> 00:51:32,240
in some sort of cultic practice that

1460
00:51:35,190 --> 00:51:33,599
went bad

1461
00:51:37,109 --> 00:51:35,200
other people say no he was just working

1462
00:51:38,309 --> 00:51:37,119
on you know rocket technology because

1463
00:51:40,390 --> 00:51:38,319
that's what he was he was a rocket

1464
00:51:41,829 --> 00:51:40,400
scientist and that that was all that was

1465
00:51:43,109 --> 00:51:41,839
was an accident you know nothing more

1466
00:51:45,990 --> 00:51:43,119
than that

1467
00:51:48,710 --> 00:51:46,000
but this deception part is key because

1468
00:51:51,109 --> 00:51:48,720
the the collins elite believe that

1469
00:51:52,710 --> 00:51:51,119
the flying saucer mythology right this

1470
00:51:55,829 --> 00:51:52,720
sort of rose up in the 20th century

1471
00:51:56,790 --> 00:51:55,839
speaking of framing was just a deceptive

1472
00:51:58,870 --> 00:51:56,800
uh

1473
00:52:01,829 --> 00:51:58,880
front it was the it was the veneer the

1474
00:52:03,030 --> 00:52:01,839
facade of what was actually demonic

1475
00:52:05,670 --> 00:52:03,040
activity

1476
00:52:08,069 --> 00:52:05,680
um and so

1477
00:52:10,470 --> 00:52:08,079
that's that's the key that the again the

1478
00:52:12,069 --> 00:52:10,480
interpretive grid already told them that

1479
00:52:13,750 --> 00:52:12,079
and if you talk to anyone or you've been

1480
00:52:15,910 --> 00:52:13,760
in fundamentalist christian circles

1481
00:52:17,910 --> 00:52:15,920
you'll know that

1482
00:52:19,750 --> 00:52:17,920
people take passages from the bible like

1483
00:52:22,470 --> 00:52:19,760
you know satan can parade as an angel of

1484
00:52:24,150 --> 00:52:22,480
light and they'll they really can apply

1485
00:52:25,750 --> 00:52:24,160
that across the board and say so you

1486
00:52:28,870 --> 00:52:25,760
could see something looks like shining

1487
00:52:30,710 --> 00:52:28,880
and glorious and beautiful and angelic

1488
00:52:32,549 --> 00:52:30,720
still satan man

1489
00:52:34,150 --> 00:52:32,559
and i'm not trying to be you know

1490
00:52:37,109 --> 00:52:34,160
totally dismissive there but it is

1491
00:52:39,990 --> 00:52:37,119
sometimes frustrating how people are not

1492
00:52:41,910 --> 00:52:40,000
willing to ever question that theology

1493
00:52:44,630 --> 00:52:41,920
because it basically is

1494
00:52:46,710 --> 00:52:44,640
um non-dismissable right it's it's you

1495
00:52:48,549 --> 00:52:46,720
can never disprove it because you just

1496
00:52:50,710 --> 00:52:48,559
say no matter how good it looks it it's

1497
00:52:52,069 --> 00:52:50,720
probably demonic still because it can

1498
00:52:54,309 --> 00:52:52,079
fool you right

1499
00:52:55,990 --> 00:52:54,319
so they they really believe that yes

1500
00:52:58,069 --> 00:52:56,000
they were manifesting as saucers they

1501
00:53:00,069 --> 00:52:58,079
were manifesting as ufos people really

1502
00:53:01,270 --> 00:53:00,079
were having these experiences but really

1503
00:53:04,150 --> 00:53:01,280
what they were

1504
00:53:07,349 --> 00:53:04,160
was like demonic alchemy basically the

1505
00:53:10,630 --> 00:53:07,359
the fruit of demonic alchemy and that it

1506
00:53:13,510 --> 00:53:10,640
was um the satanic ruse

1507
00:53:16,470 --> 00:53:13,520
designed to ultimately um you know try

1508
00:53:17,430 --> 00:53:16,480
and rob people's souls uh leading up to

1509
00:53:22,790 --> 00:53:17,440
the

1510
00:53:23,829 --> 00:53:22,800
you know armageddon uh as depicted again

1511
00:53:26,150 --> 00:53:23,839
according to some people's

1512
00:53:28,390 --> 00:53:26,160
interpretation of the book of revelation

1513
00:53:30,390 --> 00:53:28,400
uh the end times all that was

1514
00:53:31,750 --> 00:53:30,400
so when you start tying it all together

1515
00:53:33,430 --> 00:53:31,760
you see that it's an interesting

1516
00:53:35,589 --> 00:53:33,440
combination of historical events that

1517
00:53:37,109 --> 00:53:35,599
did happen some negative experiences

1518
00:53:40,870 --> 00:53:37,119
people did have

1519
00:53:42,630 --> 00:53:40,880
um and a group of people who already

1520
00:53:44,549 --> 00:53:42,640
were immersed in

1521
00:53:46,230 --> 00:53:44,559
this interpreter framework and you put

1522
00:53:47,670 --> 00:53:46,240
that all together and that's how you end

1523
00:53:48,870 --> 00:53:47,680
up with something like the collins elite

1524
00:53:50,309 --> 00:53:48,880
yeah

1525
00:53:51,829 --> 00:53:50,319
and that that's the power of these

1526
00:53:54,470 --> 00:53:51,839
eschatological

1527
00:53:58,069 --> 00:53:54,480
you know sort of narratives right that

1528
00:54:00,790 --> 00:53:58,079
it's not that they just um

1529
00:54:02,790 --> 00:54:00,800
take something from the past they they

1530
00:54:03,829 --> 00:54:02,800
they must include elements of the

1531
00:54:04,870 --> 00:54:03,839
present

1532
00:54:06,390 --> 00:54:04,880
and so

1533
00:54:08,950 --> 00:54:06,400
you know you

1534
00:54:12,309 --> 00:54:08,960
the degree to which

1535
00:54:14,870 --> 00:54:12,319
you are very much an active participant

1536
00:54:18,069 --> 00:54:14,880
in that eschatology you know is what was

1537
00:54:19,589 --> 00:54:18,079
what in in large part gives it its power

1538
00:54:22,390 --> 00:54:19,599
um and so

1539
00:54:24,470 --> 00:54:22,400
you know i think that um

1540
00:54:28,069 --> 00:54:24,480
coming back to what you said about

1541
00:54:32,549 --> 00:54:30,150
and not demeaning

1542
00:54:34,870 --> 00:54:32,559
where people come at this from i i find

1543
00:54:37,589 --> 00:54:34,880
that to be a very valuable point because

1544
00:54:41,190 --> 00:54:37,599
we we can really break down

1545
00:54:43,990 --> 00:54:41,200
this topic and i think be uh

1546
00:54:45,829 --> 00:54:44,000
you know quite reductionistic and and

1547
00:54:47,750 --> 00:54:45,839
and really place a lot of value judgment

1548
00:54:49,109 --> 00:54:47,760
on it as a framework for understanding

1549
00:54:50,870 --> 00:54:49,119
what is going on

1550
00:54:54,470 --> 00:54:50,880
but there is a different path that we

1551
00:54:56,630 --> 00:54:54,480
could take when when looking at this

1552
00:54:59,030 --> 00:54:56,640
hypothesis and and i think any

1553
00:55:01,670 --> 00:54:59,040
hypothesis quite frankly

1554
00:55:04,230 --> 00:55:01,680
and that is the path that seeks to find

1555
00:55:05,750 --> 00:55:04,240
the greater truth at play

1556
00:55:07,829 --> 00:55:05,760
with this with the underlying

1557
00:55:09,589 --> 00:55:07,839
assumptions right so

1558
00:55:11,589 --> 00:55:09,599
we're for if we're if we're couching

1559
00:55:13,829 --> 00:55:11,599
this as angels and demons

1560
00:55:15,109 --> 00:55:13,839
you know we we are

1561
00:55:19,430 --> 00:55:15,119
applying

1562
00:55:23,030 --> 00:55:19,440
uh this is sort of pro uh pro human

1563
00:55:24,630 --> 00:55:23,040
uh anti-human you know sort of pro-soul

1564
00:55:25,910 --> 00:55:24,640
anti-soul

1565
00:55:28,390 --> 00:55:25,920
you know

1566
00:55:30,309 --> 00:55:28,400
these are concepts that are at play also

1567
00:55:32,230 --> 00:55:30,319
as you mentioned the trickster element

1568
00:55:35,750 --> 00:55:32,240
is very much part of the

1569
00:55:37,990 --> 00:55:35,760
sort of popular uh demon lore

1570
00:55:40,150 --> 00:55:38,000
and and then in the in the daemon and

1571
00:55:43,030 --> 00:55:40,160
the demonic entity concept this this

1572
00:55:45,430 --> 00:55:43,040
notion of ambiguity is is very important

1573
00:55:47,349 --> 00:55:45,440
plays a very uh uh sort of important

1574
00:55:49,109 --> 00:55:47,359
role and uh when we look at the

1575
00:55:49,990 --> 00:55:49,119
phenomenon what do we see you know we

1576
00:55:59,109 --> 00:55:50,000
see

1577
00:56:00,789 --> 00:55:59,119
some experiences that are interpreted

1578
00:56:04,069 --> 00:56:00,799
very negatively

1579
00:56:06,230 --> 00:56:04,079
sort of anti-self uh anti-human

1580
00:56:09,190 --> 00:56:06,240
um even though later on they may as you

1581
00:56:11,910 --> 00:56:09,200
said become reinterpreted as being uh

1582
00:56:12,950 --> 00:56:11,920
the opposite of that uh and we also see

1583
00:56:15,030 --> 00:56:12,960
plenty of experiences that are

1584
00:56:17,430 --> 00:56:15,040
interpreted uh incredibly positively you

1585
00:56:20,950 --> 00:56:17,440
know so as in the it couched in the

1586
00:56:24,150 --> 00:56:20,960
messenger uh sort of motif that angels

1587
00:56:26,470 --> 00:56:24,160
are traditionally uh understood you know

1588
00:56:28,950 --> 00:56:26,480
messengers of the divine

1589
00:56:32,150 --> 00:56:28,960
and intermediaries between

1590
00:56:34,789 --> 00:56:32,160
god and humanity uh and so

1591
00:56:36,789 --> 00:56:34,799
you know how many stories we can we

1592
00:56:38,870 --> 00:56:36,799
we'd be here all night try to count them

1593
00:56:39,910 --> 00:56:38,880
of instances where people were given a

1594
00:56:41,510 --> 00:56:39,920
message

1595
00:56:43,990 --> 00:56:41,520
about whatever

1596
00:56:46,630 --> 00:56:44,000
you know it was important to know of the

1597
00:56:48,630 --> 00:56:46,640
time um and so you know when you look at

1598
00:56:49,750 --> 00:56:48,640
it from that perspective and trying to

1599
00:56:52,470 --> 00:56:49,760
kind of come up

1600
00:56:54,470 --> 00:56:52,480
above the above the surface it's easy to

1601
00:56:58,150 --> 00:56:54,480
see i think some things that we can

1602
00:56:59,910 --> 00:56:58,160
celebrate in this in in this concept uh

1603
00:57:02,950 --> 00:56:59,920
but i think you know you and i would

1604
00:57:04,470 --> 00:57:02,960
probably just sort of say

1605
00:57:07,430 --> 00:57:04,480
it's important to

1606
00:57:09,910 --> 00:57:07,440
be able to challenge the the core

1607
00:57:11,750 --> 00:57:09,920
the notions themselves it's not

1608
00:57:12,470 --> 00:57:11,760
necessarily that it's wrong to have

1609
00:57:14,549 --> 00:57:12,480
these

1610
00:57:15,349 --> 00:57:14,559
perspectives but we need to at the same

1611
00:57:18,230 --> 00:57:15,359
time

1612
00:57:19,829 --> 00:57:18,240
be able and willing to unpack them and

1613
00:57:22,150 --> 00:57:19,839
and examine them from different

1614
00:57:24,789 --> 00:57:22,160
perspectives and then if they still hold

1615
00:57:26,870 --> 00:57:24,799
true for you well that's okay

1616
00:57:29,030 --> 00:57:26,880
and i think that that is fine but but if

1617
00:57:31,430 --> 00:57:29,040
you haven't gone through that process

1618
00:57:33,589 --> 00:57:31,440
uh you know it's probably worthwhile to

1619
00:57:35,829 --> 00:57:33,599
do so

1620
00:57:37,510 --> 00:57:35,839
i agree and i think too

1621
00:57:40,630 --> 00:57:37,520
um i think you made a really good point

1622
00:57:42,789 --> 00:57:40,640
about the ambiguity i think that we

1623
00:57:46,150 --> 00:57:42,799
really have to look that in the face you

1624
00:57:51,030 --> 00:57:48,309
if your current

1625
00:57:53,430 --> 00:57:51,040
narratives um

1626
00:57:56,150 --> 00:57:53,440
no matter how much you try and fit these

1627
00:57:58,069 --> 00:57:56,160
different phenomena into

1628
00:57:59,829 --> 00:57:58,079
these narratives if they always end up

1629
00:58:01,990 --> 00:57:59,839
looking ambiguous

1630
00:58:03,589 --> 00:58:02,000
it's probably a good sign that whatever

1631
00:58:06,630 --> 00:58:03,599
hypothesis you're putting forward is

1632
00:58:09,349 --> 00:58:06,640
incomplete and has either some

1633
00:58:11,030 --> 00:58:09,359
only partial truth or perhaps some

1634
00:58:12,950 --> 00:58:11,040
just some notions of reality that are

1635
00:58:15,430 --> 00:58:12,960
completely off and

1636
00:58:16,789 --> 00:58:15,440
something i've sort of done historically

1637
00:58:18,470 --> 00:58:16,799
in trying

1638
00:58:19,829 --> 00:58:18,480
my darndest to make sense of what's

1639
00:58:22,630 --> 00:58:19,839
going on

1640
00:58:24,150 --> 00:58:22,640
is to is to come to ever more sort of

1641
00:58:26,390 --> 00:58:24,160
transcendent

1642
00:58:28,230 --> 00:58:26,400
and inclusive again from an integral

1643
00:58:31,030 --> 00:58:28,240
point of view

1644
00:58:33,910 --> 00:58:31,040
hypotheses that can make sense of

1645
00:58:36,950 --> 00:58:33,920
the vast you know panorama of

1646
00:58:39,510 --> 00:58:36,960
experiences that people have and and

1647
00:58:41,510 --> 00:58:39,520
you know i saw someone today on on ufo

1648
00:58:42,309 --> 00:58:41,520
twitter say you know listen

1649
00:58:45,030 --> 00:58:42,319
um

1650
00:58:46,549 --> 00:58:45,040
these aliens are taking women and and

1651
00:58:47,510 --> 00:58:46,559
impregnating them and then stealing

1652
00:58:48,950 --> 00:58:47,520
their babies in the middle of night

1653
00:58:50,710 --> 00:58:48,960
that's not okay

1654
00:58:52,150 --> 00:58:50,720
and i totally get that

1655
00:58:53,270 --> 00:58:52,160
perspective i mean when someone says it

1656
00:58:55,510 --> 00:58:53,280
lays it out like that it's hard to

1657
00:58:56,950 --> 00:58:55,520
disagree right and and that would be

1658
00:58:58,309 --> 00:58:56,960
criminal activity in a court of law

1659
00:59:00,069 --> 00:58:58,319
right for sure

1660
00:59:02,309 --> 00:59:00,079
um but then there's another entire

1661
00:59:04,069 --> 00:59:02,319
narrative around people who later on

1662
00:59:06,470 --> 00:59:04,079
realized they made a sole agreement in

1663
00:59:08,069 --> 00:59:06,480
between lifetimes and they

1664
00:59:09,829 --> 00:59:08,079
they were once a hybrid themselves or

1665
00:59:12,789 --> 00:59:09,839
they are a hybrid or they agreed to have

1666
00:59:14,470 --> 00:59:12,799
hybrid children that they just you know

1667
00:59:16,230 --> 00:59:14,480
lost touch with a certain modality of

1668
00:59:17,589 --> 00:59:16,240
themselves

1669
00:59:25,750 --> 00:59:17,599
so

1670
00:59:27,990 --> 00:59:25,760
reaching for a hypothesis that's broad

1671
00:59:29,750 --> 00:59:28,000
enough that's deep enough to

1672
00:59:31,430 --> 00:59:29,760
make sense of all of these different

1673
00:59:33,750 --> 00:59:31,440
experiences not just the experiences

1674
00:59:35,589 --> 00:59:33,760
themselves not just the many different

1675
00:59:38,710 --> 00:59:35,599
kinds of entities and craft that are

1676
00:59:41,030 --> 00:59:38,720
described but also how broad the

1677
00:59:42,710 --> 00:59:41,040
assortment of interpretations of the

1678
00:59:44,309 --> 00:59:42,720
experiences like you have to make sense

1679
00:59:45,910 --> 00:59:44,319
of all of that

1680
00:59:47,589 --> 00:59:45,920
i mean i feel like i've made some some

1681
00:59:49,430 --> 00:59:47,599
headway in that and

1682
00:59:50,630 --> 00:59:49,440
um

1683
00:59:52,470 --> 00:59:50,640
you know sort of like have some

1684
00:59:56,069 --> 00:59:52,480
conceptions now of how to make sense of

1685
00:59:57,750 --> 00:59:56,079
that but but what made me move away from

1686
00:59:59,349 --> 00:59:57,760
any of the previous conceptions was

1687
01:00:01,109 --> 00:59:59,359
recognizing that there's some data that

1688
01:00:02,549 --> 01:00:01,119
just didn't fit and i'm i wasn't

1689
01:00:04,150 --> 01:00:02,559
comfortable saying

1690
01:00:05,109 --> 01:00:04,160
this is pretty good this gets like 80

1691
01:00:06,710 --> 01:00:05,119
percent

1692
01:00:09,589 --> 01:00:06,720
but then there's this 20

1693
01:00:11,910 --> 01:00:09,599
you know steaming pile of refuse that

1694
01:00:12,870 --> 01:00:11,920
like refuses to be ignored you know and

1695
01:00:15,349 --> 01:00:12,880
it's like

1696
01:00:17,430 --> 01:00:15,359
um do you want simple answers or do you

1697
01:00:19,589 --> 01:00:17,440
want truth you know and and

1698
01:00:21,510 --> 01:00:19,599
uh if you if it doesn't make sense of

1699
01:00:23,270 --> 01:00:21,520
all the data yet keep trying keep

1700
01:00:25,030 --> 01:00:23,280
looking that's that's an invitation to

1701
01:00:28,069 --> 01:00:25,040
another layer of depth

1702
01:00:30,390 --> 01:00:28,079
uh and and the goal being eventually

1703
01:00:32,069 --> 01:00:30,400
trying to make sense not of just the

1704
01:00:34,309 --> 01:00:32,079
depth and breadth of the experiences

1705
01:00:37,109 --> 01:00:34,319
themselves but the entities themselves

1706
01:00:39,030 --> 01:00:37,119
all of it um

1707
01:00:40,789 --> 01:00:39,040
and you know this

1708
01:00:43,109 --> 01:00:40,799
this spiritual element you know getting

1709
01:00:45,589 --> 01:00:43,119
down to those angels demons uh i like

1710
01:00:47,910 --> 01:00:45,599
the way you put it pro-human anti-human

1711
01:00:50,069 --> 01:00:47,920
pro-soul anti-soul

1712
01:00:52,710 --> 01:00:50,079
uh you know because even within even

1713
01:00:55,109 --> 01:00:52,720
within ufology you get um you know like

1714
01:00:57,190 --> 01:00:55,119
an allies of humanity kind of notion

1715
01:00:59,190 --> 01:00:57,200
right you get people who say no this

1716
01:01:01,270 --> 01:00:59,200
this is kind of about et's there's

1717
01:01:02,870 --> 01:01:01,280
different et groups some some are for

1718
01:01:04,230 --> 01:01:02,880
ref some are against us some are trying

1719
01:01:06,710 --> 01:01:04,240
to enslave us

1720
01:01:07,510 --> 01:01:06,720
for some we're like farm animals

1721
01:01:09,750 --> 01:01:07,520
uh

1722
01:01:11,750 --> 01:01:09,760
property you know this gets tossed

1723
01:01:14,069 --> 01:01:11,760
around a lot right and we we have these

1724
01:01:15,349 --> 01:01:14,079
like notions of like terror overcome us

1725
01:01:16,630 --> 01:01:15,359
when we suddenly realize what if you

1726
01:01:18,390 --> 01:01:16,640
know we're just like

1727
01:01:19,430 --> 01:01:18,400
grazing on farmland to some of these

1728
01:01:21,430 --> 01:01:19,440
beings

1729
01:01:23,510 --> 01:01:21,440
uh

1730
01:01:26,309 --> 01:01:23,520
all that is to say you know all of these

1731
01:01:27,990 --> 01:01:26,319
uh these notions i think we have to you

1732
01:01:29,829 --> 01:01:28,000
know in other words it's not just

1733
01:01:31,990 --> 01:01:29,839
trying to dismiss or

1734
01:01:34,230 --> 01:01:32,000
belittle um

1735
01:01:35,750 --> 01:01:34,240
narrow spiritual interpretations because

1736
01:01:38,309 --> 01:01:35,760
again even for people who want to keep

1737
01:01:40,309 --> 01:01:38,319
it just as physical entities uh there

1738
01:01:42,309 --> 01:01:40,319
are some notions that still seem pretty

1739
01:01:45,109 --> 01:01:42,319
black and white and pretty like

1740
01:01:46,789 --> 01:01:45,119
cookie cutter good aliens bad aliens you

1741
01:01:47,910 --> 01:01:46,799
know

1742
01:01:49,990 --> 01:01:47,920
and

1743
01:01:51,349 --> 01:01:50,000
you know if if the data feels like it's

1744
01:01:53,670 --> 01:01:51,359
just not quite fitting when you hear

1745
01:01:55,750 --> 01:01:53,680
someone say my take is it's this this is

1746
01:01:57,910 --> 01:01:55,760
what's going on and you just have this

1747
01:02:00,150 --> 01:01:57,920
nagging feeling that that

1748
01:02:02,230 --> 01:02:00,160
awkwardly fits with the data and maybe

1749
01:02:03,910 --> 01:02:02,240
just ignores some data then i think

1750
01:02:06,870 --> 01:02:03,920
that's an invitation to keep looking

1751
01:02:08,150 --> 01:02:06,880
keep exploring and see where you end up

1752
01:02:12,950 --> 01:02:08,160
well and

1753
01:02:16,750 --> 01:02:15,190
in the tradition of that view looking

1754
01:02:19,589 --> 01:02:16,760
back at

1755
01:02:21,270 --> 01:02:19,599
interpretations that have been given in

1756
01:02:25,829 --> 01:02:21,280
in history of the phenomenon a

1757
01:02:29,349 --> 01:02:27,670
i think it's safe to say that that it

1758
01:02:30,630 --> 01:02:29,359
does change

1759
01:02:32,069 --> 01:02:30,640
right so

1760
01:02:33,910 --> 01:02:32,079
you know we haven't

1761
01:02:35,750 --> 01:02:33,920
we haven't quite touched on this

1762
01:02:37,910 --> 01:02:35,760
component of it but you do you

1763
01:02:39,190 --> 01:02:37,920
definitely do see it in the literature

1764
01:02:41,670 --> 01:02:39,200
and particularly if you look at this

1765
01:02:43,349 --> 01:02:41,680
from a very very broad view which we

1766
01:02:47,190 --> 01:02:43,359
have been with you know talking about

1767
01:02:51,190 --> 01:02:50,069
there is this uh sense in which

1768
01:02:54,470 --> 01:02:51,200
the

1769
01:02:57,109 --> 01:02:54,480
phenomenon

1770
01:02:58,870 --> 01:02:57,119
literally changes over time

1771
01:03:00,150 --> 01:02:58,880
um and that

1772
01:03:01,109 --> 01:03:00,160
you know you and i have talked about

1773
01:03:05,750 --> 01:03:01,119
this

1774
01:03:07,270 --> 01:03:05,760
that is a signpost to something truer

1775
01:03:09,990 --> 01:03:07,280
in and of itself

1776
01:03:12,309 --> 01:03:10,000
you know so we we do

1777
01:03:14,549 --> 01:03:12,319
i think it is easy for us to approach

1778
01:03:17,589 --> 01:03:14,559
this topic the way that we have

1779
01:03:19,990 --> 01:03:17,599
largely on this on this show

1780
01:03:21,829 --> 01:03:20,000
kind of looking at it pretty critically

1781
01:03:23,910 --> 01:03:21,839
and i mean that in a in just sort of an

1782
01:03:26,069 --> 01:03:23,920
objective analysis sort of way not not

1783
01:03:27,430 --> 01:03:26,079
judgmental per se

1784
01:03:28,710 --> 01:03:27,440
um

1785
01:03:30,950 --> 01:03:28,720
you know looking at it from the the

1786
01:03:33,109 --> 01:03:30,960
standpoint of cultural frameworks but

1787
01:03:35,349 --> 01:03:33,119
but really it could be just as equally

1788
01:03:36,789 --> 01:03:35,359
valid to say that the phenomenon itself

1789
01:03:39,349 --> 01:03:36,799
literally has

1790
01:03:41,589 --> 01:03:39,359
represented itself to humanity

1791
01:03:44,390 --> 01:03:41,599
differently over time and what might

1792
01:03:47,910 --> 01:03:44,400
that imply what might that mean uh for

1793
01:03:50,150 --> 01:03:47,920
what it truly is

1794
01:03:51,990 --> 01:03:50,160
yeah i mean that's that's a fascinating

1795
01:03:54,069 --> 01:03:52,000
aspect to bring in and i agree with you

1796
01:03:55,910 --> 01:03:54,079
that we have to um

1797
01:03:57,029 --> 01:03:55,920
you know but even the way we just coined

1798
01:03:58,630 --> 01:03:57,039
it there

1799
01:03:59,750 --> 01:03:58,640
you could you could see it differently

1800
01:04:01,670 --> 01:03:59,760
you could say

1801
01:04:03,510 --> 01:04:01,680
is it that they are clothing themselves

1802
01:04:07,430 --> 01:04:03,520
differently or that

1803
01:04:09,270 --> 01:04:07,440
we are always a uh an inevitable aspect

1804
01:04:11,510 --> 01:04:09,280
of the framing itself right that

1805
01:04:13,109 --> 01:04:11,520
something about our consciousness

1806
01:04:15,349 --> 01:04:13,119
as much as we talk about

1807
01:04:17,430 --> 01:04:15,359
some notion that they can manipulate our

1808
01:04:19,190 --> 01:04:17,440
consciousness

1809
01:04:21,029 --> 01:04:19,200
but putting that aside for a second to

1810
01:04:23,029 --> 01:04:21,039
what degree

1811
01:04:24,549 --> 01:04:23,039
is it possible that

1812
01:04:26,549 --> 01:04:24,559
in the same way that i mentioned the

1813
01:04:28,950 --> 01:04:26,559
biblical texts cover a large period of

1814
01:04:30,630 --> 01:04:28,960
time in many different cultures

1815
01:04:32,069 --> 01:04:30,640
different ways of seeing the world and

1816
01:04:33,430 --> 01:04:32,079
when you're honest about it when you

1817
01:04:35,750 --> 01:04:33,440
look at it

1818
01:04:39,349 --> 01:04:35,760
you know in close detail you see those

1819
01:04:42,069 --> 01:04:40,549
you know

1820
01:04:44,309 --> 01:04:42,079
so what i was saying was that really

1821
01:04:46,069 --> 01:04:44,319
what the bible is is a document

1822
01:04:48,470 --> 01:04:46,079
historical document

1823
01:04:50,549 --> 01:04:48,480
referencing not just experiences with

1824
01:04:52,789 --> 01:04:50,559
god and spiritual entities

1825
01:04:55,270 --> 01:04:52,799
but people's interpretation of what that

1826
01:04:57,109 --> 01:04:55,280
meant for reality and the way that they

1827
01:04:58,870 --> 01:04:57,119
experienced the world as that shifted

1828
01:05:00,150 --> 01:04:58,880
that also changed their perspective of

1829
01:05:02,230 --> 01:05:00,160
god so

1830
01:05:04,230 --> 01:05:02,240
um some people will look at the new

1831
01:05:05,670 --> 01:05:04,240
testament and say you have a picture of

1832
01:05:07,270 --> 01:05:05,680
a loving god in the new testament and

1833
01:05:08,710 --> 01:05:07,280
more of a judgmental

1834
01:05:11,190 --> 01:05:08,720
harsh kind of

1835
01:05:13,109 --> 01:05:11,200
um you know angry

1836
01:05:14,390 --> 01:05:13,119
damning kind of god in the old testament

1837
01:05:15,829 --> 01:05:14,400
and

1838
01:05:17,430 --> 01:05:15,839
but even that's too simplistic because

1839
01:05:20,829 --> 01:05:17,440
the old testament covers a long period

1840
01:05:23,510 --> 01:05:20,839
of time and different frameworks

1841
01:05:25,589 --> 01:05:23,520
so um

1842
01:05:28,549 --> 01:05:25,599
what i'm getting at there is that what

1843
01:05:31,750 --> 01:05:28,559
the bible is is a historical record of

1844
01:05:33,910 --> 01:05:31,760
humanity's shifting perspective with

1845
01:05:35,430 --> 01:05:33,920
spiritual phenomena okay

1846
01:05:38,390 --> 01:05:35,440
in the same way

1847
01:05:40,630 --> 01:05:38,400
the way that we've coined and described

1848
01:05:42,710 --> 01:05:40,640
and understood the different experiences

1849
01:05:45,190 --> 01:05:42,720
with the phenomenon over time

1850
01:05:48,069 --> 01:05:45,200
yes it could be that they've they've

1851
01:05:50,549 --> 01:05:48,079
changed the way they appear

1852
01:05:52,549 --> 01:05:50,559
or that they and perhaps that they're

1853
01:05:54,309 --> 01:05:52,559
they're wise enough to know

1854
01:05:56,390 --> 01:05:54,319
what we expect and so they show up in a

1855
01:05:59,270 --> 01:05:56,400
way is to sort of interact

1856
01:06:01,589 --> 01:05:59,280
with our framings as they exist

1857
01:06:02,549 --> 01:06:01,599
or you could even say

1858
01:06:05,029 --> 01:06:02,559
um

1859
01:06:05,910 --> 01:06:05,039
kind of like an interference pattern

1860
01:06:08,549 --> 01:06:05,920
that

1861
01:06:09,750 --> 01:06:08,559
the the way they manifest is always

1862
01:06:12,069 --> 01:06:09,760
going to be

1863
01:06:14,789 --> 01:06:12,079
a combination of

1864
01:06:17,029 --> 01:06:14,799
who they are and what we expect them to

1865
01:06:19,829 --> 01:06:17,039
be or what we have even on our

1866
01:06:22,230 --> 01:06:19,839
unconscious palette of what can manifest

1867
01:06:24,549 --> 01:06:22,240
and what reality is consisted of

1868
01:06:27,430 --> 01:06:24,559
uh comprised of those all of those

1869
01:06:29,029 --> 01:06:27,440
factors combine to create something that

1870
01:06:31,270 --> 01:06:29,039
actually shows up in what looks like

1871
01:06:32,789 --> 01:06:31,280
manifest reality and of course when you

1872
01:06:34,950 --> 01:06:32,799
get there

1873
01:06:36,789 --> 01:06:34,960
as you know i've kind of been

1874
01:06:37,910 --> 01:06:36,799
going down that path

1875
01:06:39,270 --> 01:06:37,920
then that

1876
01:06:41,510 --> 01:06:39,280
lands you at the point where you say

1877
01:06:44,230 --> 01:06:41,520
okay our entire understanding of what

1878
01:06:45,990 --> 01:06:44,240
reality is it now shifts

1879
01:06:48,390 --> 01:06:46,000
but from my point of view again when i

1880
01:06:50,230 --> 01:06:48,400
kept when i was mentioning a while ago

1881
01:06:52,069 --> 01:06:50,240
keep going deeper keep going broader

1882
01:06:53,670 --> 01:06:52,079
keep you know reaching until you have

1883
01:06:56,390 --> 01:06:53,680
something that makes sense i think

1884
01:06:58,069 --> 01:06:56,400
that's where you have to end up that are

1885
01:06:59,349 --> 01:06:58,079
our current models of reality as are

1886
01:07:02,150 --> 01:06:59,359
often

1887
01:07:05,270 --> 01:07:02,160
described cannot make sense of this

1888
01:07:07,029 --> 01:07:05,280
with any of the the known players e.t

1889
01:07:09,430 --> 01:07:07,039
et's crypto-terrestrials

1890
01:07:11,589 --> 01:07:09,440
ultra-terrestrials interdimensionals

1891
01:07:13,589 --> 01:07:11,599
none of them quite fit

1892
01:07:14,870 --> 01:07:13,599
because i think all of those to some

1893
01:07:17,829 --> 01:07:14,880
degree

1894
01:07:20,230 --> 01:07:17,839
uh are born out of um

1895
01:07:22,549 --> 01:07:20,240
our current model like within physics of

1896
01:07:23,670 --> 01:07:22,559
what what constitutes reality

1897
01:07:25,510 --> 01:07:23,680
um

1898
01:07:26,470 --> 01:07:25,520
and and i think when none of those quite

1899
01:07:29,029 --> 01:07:26,480
fit

1900
01:07:31,910 --> 01:07:29,039
inevitably you end up at it's the model

1901
01:07:33,109 --> 01:07:31,920
of reality that is that is off and until

1902
01:07:35,670 --> 01:07:33,119
we have

1903
01:07:37,270 --> 01:07:35,680
that evolve into something else

1904
01:07:39,109 --> 01:07:37,280
um we're not going to be able to make

1905
01:07:40,710 --> 01:07:39,119
sense of that

1906
01:07:42,950 --> 01:07:40,720
yeah

1907
01:07:46,390 --> 01:07:42,960
i'm really sort of

1908
01:07:51,349 --> 01:07:49,029
the the truth that we we

1909
01:07:52,710 --> 01:07:51,359
the tensions between certainty and

1910
01:07:55,190 --> 01:07:52,720
change

1911
01:07:57,109 --> 01:07:55,200
right so we really want certainty we

1912
01:08:01,349 --> 01:07:57,119
want to believe

1913
01:08:03,109 --> 01:08:01,359
in a reality that is fixed and even in

1914
01:08:06,309 --> 01:08:03,119
most

1915
01:08:11,270 --> 01:08:08,470
and quite frankly our cosmologies too in

1916
01:08:13,589 --> 01:08:11,280
many respects we approach them from the

1917
01:08:15,750 --> 01:08:13,599
vantage point that there are these

1918
01:08:17,669 --> 01:08:15,760
variables that are fixed

1919
01:08:19,829 --> 01:08:17,679
in that equation that they they

1920
01:08:21,749 --> 01:08:19,839
themselves do not change they themselves

1921
01:08:24,709 --> 01:08:21,759
are not dynamic

1922
01:08:26,390 --> 01:08:24,719
and and i wonder whether that is uh a

1923
01:08:28,470 --> 01:08:26,400
false assumption

1924
01:08:29,910 --> 01:08:28,480
that we really have to work hard and

1925
01:08:31,110 --> 01:08:29,920
kind of fight hard against that

1926
01:08:33,349 --> 01:08:31,120
compulsion

1927
01:08:35,349 --> 01:08:33,359
you know so we really

1928
01:08:37,590 --> 01:08:35,359
for most of the topics that we're going

1929
01:08:39,510 --> 01:08:37,600
to cover there is this

1930
01:08:41,349 --> 01:08:39,520
strong compulsion at least that i feel

1931
01:08:43,349 --> 01:08:41,359
to say you know what that's it

1932
01:08:45,430 --> 01:08:43,359
we nailed it you know it's it is this

1933
01:08:47,349 --> 01:08:45,440
it's going to go in this box

1934
01:08:50,309 --> 01:08:47,359
we've solved it

1935
01:08:54,149 --> 01:08:50,319
let's move on and i think

1936
01:08:55,669 --> 01:08:54,159
the longer that i study this uh and and

1937
01:08:58,070 --> 01:08:55,679
and really reflect not only on this

1938
01:09:00,149 --> 01:08:58,080
topic but really any

1939
01:09:02,470 --> 01:09:00,159
uh subject that has been

1940
01:09:04,550 --> 01:09:02,480
uh valuable to my own life

1941
01:09:05,669 --> 01:09:04,560
you know i have to be honest with the

1942
01:09:06,630 --> 01:09:05,679
fact that

1943
01:09:09,749 --> 01:09:06,640
i

1944
01:09:12,149 --> 01:09:09,759
to be solved

1945
01:09:14,309 --> 01:09:12,159
you know that i would rather it be

1946
01:09:16,550 --> 01:09:14,319
always in flux

1947
01:09:18,470 --> 01:09:16,560
and not only would i prefer it but in in

1948
01:09:21,749 --> 01:09:18,480
reality it is

1949
01:09:24,789 --> 01:09:21,759
it is constantly changing

1950
01:09:27,269 --> 01:09:24,799
and will constantly change

1951
01:09:28,870 --> 01:09:27,279
so i think coming to that place that

1952
01:09:31,030 --> 01:09:28,880
realization

1953
01:09:32,149 --> 01:09:31,040
when you approach this topic is very

1954
01:09:33,510 --> 01:09:32,159
healthy

1955
01:09:35,430 --> 01:09:33,520
and and you and i have talked about this

1956
01:09:37,269 --> 01:09:35,440
a lot the people that have studied this

1957
01:09:39,669 --> 01:09:37,279
often the most

1958
01:09:42,229 --> 01:09:39,679
have have landed in a place where they

1959
01:09:44,070 --> 01:09:42,239
say they don't really know

1960
01:09:45,829 --> 01:09:44,080
all that there is they have not come to

1961
01:09:47,110 --> 01:09:45,839
some firm conclusions

1962
01:09:49,430 --> 01:09:47,120
and i think we need to take them at

1963
01:09:51,349 --> 01:09:49,440
their word you know they've sent many

1964
01:09:52,630 --> 01:09:51,359
many cases their lives devoted to the

1965
01:09:54,470 --> 01:09:52,640
study of this

1966
01:09:56,630 --> 01:09:54,480
uh and if they're saying that you know

1967
01:09:58,070 --> 01:09:56,640
our search for easy answers

1968
01:10:02,149 --> 01:09:58,080
i think should be

1969
01:10:04,229 --> 01:10:02,159
uh really called into question there

1970
01:10:05,510 --> 01:10:04,239
yeah it comes back to that that phrase i

1971
01:10:06,950 --> 01:10:05,520
mentioned earlier about you never enter

1972
01:10:08,950 --> 01:10:06,960
the same river twice you know that

1973
01:10:11,669 --> 01:10:08,960
that's true of our lives it's true the

1974
01:10:13,110 --> 01:10:11,679
of the different you like you say these

1975
01:10:14,550 --> 01:10:13,120
these poles that we prefer to be

1976
01:10:16,709 --> 01:10:14,560
cemented into the ground that they're

1977
01:10:18,310 --> 01:10:16,719
always going to be in the same place

1978
01:10:20,310 --> 01:10:18,320
but they're not and you know you think

1979
01:10:21,990 --> 01:10:20,320
about even how

1980
01:10:23,669 --> 01:10:22,000
human beings you know

1981
01:10:25,990 --> 01:10:23,679
not all that long ago

1982
01:10:27,350 --> 01:10:26,000
didn't make it past 30 or 40 years old

1983
01:10:30,630 --> 01:10:27,360
right and so

1984
01:10:33,350 --> 01:10:30,640
you didn't have a lot of time nor

1985
01:10:35,510 --> 01:10:33,360
rich cultural experiences to begin to

1986
01:10:37,510 --> 01:10:35,520
shift your perspective on what you know

1987
01:10:38,870 --> 01:10:37,520
what reality was right that wasn't

1988
01:10:40,630 --> 01:10:38,880
common you know you

1989
01:10:42,630 --> 01:10:40,640
you had long periods of history where

1990
01:10:45,030 --> 01:10:42,640
there not much change in terms of the

1991
01:10:47,189 --> 01:10:45,040
cosmology and whatnot um

1992
01:10:49,750 --> 01:10:47,199
now again as i mentioned before with the

1993
01:10:52,630 --> 01:10:49,760
soul technological singularity thing

1994
01:10:54,870 --> 01:10:52,640
we're racing at break deck speed between

1995
01:10:56,709 --> 01:10:54,880
you know towards some some

1996
01:10:57,510 --> 01:10:56,719
peninsula penultimate point that's you

1997
01:11:01,669 --> 01:10:57,520
know

1998
01:11:04,550 --> 01:11:01,679
other side of it um

1999
01:11:07,110 --> 01:11:04,560
but yeah it's even interesting for us as

2000
01:11:09,189 --> 01:11:07,120
21st century people to recognize that we

2001
01:11:12,550 --> 01:11:09,199
uh we live long enough now if we're

2002
01:11:14,709 --> 01:11:12,560
lucky um to to really

2003
01:11:16,870 --> 01:11:14,719
be able to live through these changes

2004
01:11:18,070 --> 01:11:16,880
not just the way that society has

2005
01:11:20,229 --> 01:11:18,080
changed you know

2006
01:11:22,149 --> 01:11:20,239
some of the the things that are not okay

2007
01:11:23,510 --> 01:11:22,159
culturally now were not the case when

2008
01:11:26,790 --> 01:11:23,520
you and i were teenagers you know it's

2009
01:11:29,189 --> 01:11:26,800
like it's amazing to to go and and we

2010
01:11:30,630 --> 01:11:29,199
both have kids and our kids probably

2011
01:11:33,189 --> 01:11:30,640
can't imagine that there ever was a

2012
01:11:34,870 --> 01:11:33,199
world where that was okay but there was

2013
01:11:36,870 --> 01:11:34,880
and we were you know we're not even at

2014
01:11:40,070 --> 01:11:36,880
old and yet we remember

2015
01:11:41,110 --> 01:11:40,080
when that was the case and so

2016
01:11:42,709 --> 01:11:41,120
yes

2017
01:11:45,350 --> 01:11:42,719
you can either become overwhelmed by

2018
01:11:47,189 --> 01:11:45,360
that you can become um you know

2019
01:11:49,750 --> 01:11:47,199
unmoored by that

2020
01:11:51,189 --> 01:11:49,760
or you can learn to swim you know or

2021
01:11:53,669 --> 01:11:51,199
just recognize you're on the boat you're

2022
01:11:56,550 --> 01:11:53,679
part of the river you go with it and i

2023
01:11:58,070 --> 01:11:56,560
agree with you too that

2024
01:11:59,830 --> 01:11:58,080
i do feel like i've had some

2025
01:12:03,350 --> 01:11:59,840
breakthroughs in terms of understanding

2026
01:12:04,950 --> 01:12:03,360
how to how a a model of reality would

2027
01:12:07,110 --> 01:12:04,960
have to shift to make sense of more of

2028
01:12:09,350 --> 01:12:07,120
these kinds of experiences but even then

2029
01:12:11,750 --> 01:12:09,360
i still think inevitably like i was

2030
01:12:13,430 --> 01:12:11,760
mentioning with integral theory and um

2031
01:12:14,630 --> 01:12:13,440
developmental levels that come online

2032
01:12:15,910 --> 01:12:14,640
over time

2033
01:12:17,110 --> 01:12:15,920
um

2034
01:12:18,630 --> 01:12:17,120
you're always

2035
01:12:19,990 --> 01:12:18,640
unwrapping the onion

2036
01:12:21,350 --> 01:12:20,000
that's what it is and and just be

2037
01:12:23,910 --> 01:12:21,360
comfortable with that you know and

2038
01:12:25,830 --> 01:12:23,920
embrace the adventure the experience

2039
01:12:28,550 --> 01:12:25,840
and you know

2040
01:12:31,510 --> 01:12:28,560
i think even the ultimate uh you know

2041
01:12:33,510 --> 01:12:31,520
directionality of of of the cosmos with

2042
01:12:35,990 --> 01:12:33,520
the k like the interior and the exterior

2043
01:12:37,590 --> 01:12:36,000
cosmos is that it that's it it's a

2044
01:12:39,110 --> 01:12:37,600
journey you know and that

2045
01:12:41,750 --> 01:12:39,120
you know we often have this phrase you

2046
01:12:43,430 --> 01:12:41,760
know uh the journey is half the fun

2047
01:12:45,270 --> 01:12:43,440
right or you know sometimes when you get

2048
01:12:46,709 --> 01:12:45,280
there you're like getting there was was

2049
01:12:48,790 --> 01:12:46,719
what really was exciting and i think

2050
01:12:50,630 --> 01:12:48,800
that's both you and i kind of take that

2051
01:12:52,390 --> 01:12:50,640
perspective

2052
01:12:54,229 --> 01:12:52,400
both out of necessity because you

2053
01:12:56,790 --> 01:12:54,239
recognize no no simple answers are going

2054
01:12:58,870 --> 01:12:56,800
to fit here

2055
01:13:01,270 --> 01:12:58,880
but just the nature of reality

2056
01:13:02,630 --> 01:13:01,280
and being a a

2057
01:13:05,030 --> 01:13:02,640
sentient

2058
01:13:07,510 --> 01:13:05,040
being living in this reality means that

2059
01:13:09,110 --> 01:13:07,520
it will always be shifting and

2060
01:13:11,910 --> 01:13:09,120
what i find exciting about that is that

2061
01:13:14,950 --> 01:13:11,920
you have ever more transcendent uh

2062
01:13:16,630 --> 01:13:14,960
meaningful ways of framing and that your

2063
01:13:18,390 --> 01:13:16,640
sense of self becomes ever more

2064
01:13:20,149 --> 01:13:18,400
expansive

2065
01:13:21,830 --> 01:13:20,159
so it's always an additive kind of

2066
01:13:22,950 --> 01:13:21,840
process um

2067
01:13:25,270 --> 01:13:22,960
but yeah

2068
01:13:26,709 --> 01:13:25,280
if if you're seeking for simple

2069
01:13:27,990 --> 01:13:26,719
certitude this this is the wrong

2070
01:13:30,149 --> 01:13:28,000
business to be in

2071
01:13:33,510 --> 01:13:30,159
no that's so true well as we kind of

2072
01:13:36,709 --> 01:13:33,520
steer toward the end of the show

2073
01:13:38,070 --> 01:13:36,719
what would be your advice to

2074
01:13:40,630 --> 01:13:38,080
someone who

2075
01:13:42,310 --> 01:13:40,640
finds themselves situated

2076
01:13:44,709 --> 01:13:42,320
in looking at the phenomenon from this

2077
01:13:46,950 --> 01:13:44,719
perspective right now

2078
01:13:48,149 --> 01:13:46,960
or if you were in dialogue with someone

2079
01:13:50,709 --> 01:13:48,159
who

2080
01:13:52,950 --> 01:13:50,719
uh had that perspective you know how

2081
01:13:54,709 --> 01:13:52,960
would you approach that conversation uh

2082
01:13:57,110 --> 01:13:54,719
you know in that relationship you know

2083
01:14:00,149 --> 01:13:57,120
what kinds of things would you

2084
01:14:02,550 --> 01:14:00,159
uh want to touch on or discuss or or

2085
01:14:04,709 --> 01:14:02,560
challenge if if any

2086
01:14:06,709 --> 01:14:04,719
where do you meet someone who has a view

2087
01:14:11,430 --> 01:14:06,719
that may be counter to a conclusion that

2088
01:14:15,910 --> 01:14:13,030
well i think you know one one of the

2089
01:14:18,149 --> 01:14:15,920
perspectives that i i have and this is

2090
01:14:19,590 --> 01:14:18,159
in being a human being who's

2091
01:14:21,990 --> 01:14:19,600
evolved through dif different world

2092
01:14:24,790 --> 01:14:22,000
views myself right so i can almost

2093
01:14:26,950 --> 01:14:24,800
imagine trying to um have a conversation

2094
01:14:30,390 --> 01:14:26,960
with myself you know 15 years ago or

2095
01:14:32,790 --> 01:14:30,400
whatever um and what i would say about

2096
01:14:35,910 --> 01:14:32,800
that experience is just as true as

2097
01:14:38,310 --> 01:14:35,920
talking to someone else and that is that

2098
01:14:39,430 --> 01:14:38,320
all you can ever do uh is meet someone

2099
01:14:42,390 --> 01:14:39,440
where they are

2100
01:14:44,149 --> 01:14:42,400
you have to try and help them develop a

2101
01:14:46,790 --> 01:14:44,159
more mature

2102
01:14:48,709 --> 01:14:46,800
well-rounded view where they are

2103
01:14:50,709 --> 01:14:48,719
um

2104
01:14:52,790 --> 01:14:50,719
if they are ever to perhaps transcend

2105
01:14:54,630 --> 01:14:52,800
that and have a

2106
01:14:56,390 --> 01:14:54,640
a different view that sort of more

2107
01:14:58,709 --> 01:14:56,400
transcendent and inclusive

2108
01:15:00,709 --> 01:14:58,719
of larger territory

2109
01:15:01,910 --> 01:15:00,719
then you have to um

2110
01:15:03,189 --> 01:15:01,920
you have to meet them where they are and

2111
01:15:05,910 --> 01:15:03,199
you have to start where they are and you

2112
01:15:09,030 --> 01:15:05,920
have to ask questions get them to think

2113
01:15:11,189 --> 01:15:09,040
about things within that perspective

2114
01:15:14,310 --> 01:15:11,199
because like i said before with you know

2115
01:15:15,990 --> 01:15:14,320
my different uh historical iterations uh

2116
01:15:17,669 --> 01:15:16,000
wearing different suits until it no

2117
01:15:19,350 --> 01:15:17,679
longer felt comfortable

2118
01:15:21,430 --> 01:15:19,360
um you know

2119
01:15:23,189 --> 01:15:21,440
if people are sincere and they're really

2120
01:15:25,030 --> 01:15:23,199
trying to find truth then i think you

2121
01:15:28,470 --> 01:15:25,040
just um

2122
01:15:30,790 --> 01:15:28,480
maybe interject some um some of the data

2123
01:15:31,990 --> 01:15:30,800
that doesn't fit with their current

2124
01:15:33,990 --> 01:15:32,000
perspective and i would want other

2125
01:15:36,630 --> 01:15:34,000
people to do the same for me you know

2126
01:15:38,390 --> 01:15:36,640
we're not uh you know immune to this

2127
01:15:40,390 --> 01:15:38,400
and um

2128
01:15:43,430 --> 01:15:40,400
and and do it respectfully you know like

2129
01:15:44,950 --> 01:15:43,440
not again not to be dismissive um

2130
01:15:47,189 --> 01:15:44,960
there are

2131
01:15:49,510 --> 01:15:47,199
again i i i'm frequently amazed that i

2132
01:15:51,590 --> 01:15:49,520
run into people who want to

2133
01:15:53,830 --> 01:15:51,600
uh paint this entire thing as love and

2134
01:15:56,550 --> 01:15:53,840
light and that anybody who has a

2135
01:15:59,189 --> 01:15:56,560
negative experience either

2136
01:16:00,790 --> 01:15:59,199
has psychological problems or

2137
01:16:02,790 --> 01:16:00,800
they're making it up or they were

2138
01:16:04,790 --> 01:16:02,800
convinced by someone else who told them

2139
01:16:06,950 --> 01:16:04,800
freaky things

2140
01:16:08,630 --> 01:16:06,960
so you have some people who

2141
01:16:10,390 --> 01:16:08,640
again come in with a predetermined

2142
01:16:13,030 --> 01:16:10,400
perspective and exclude

2143
01:16:14,070 --> 01:16:13,040
any outlier data

2144
01:16:15,750 --> 01:16:14,080
coming from the love and light

2145
01:16:17,270 --> 01:16:15,760
perspective and you also get the people

2146
01:16:19,030 --> 01:16:17,280
coming from the demonic perspective who

2147
01:16:22,870 --> 01:16:19,040
are convinced that you know

2148
01:16:24,709 --> 01:16:22,880
these might look like et's um but they

2149
01:16:25,990 --> 01:16:24,719
are inevitably

2150
01:16:27,910 --> 01:16:26,000
ultimately

2151
01:16:29,669 --> 01:16:27,920
these nefarious interdimensional

2152
01:16:31,430 --> 01:16:29,679
entities that are the very beings that

2153
01:16:34,950 --> 01:16:31,440
were cast out of heaven

2154
01:16:37,110 --> 01:16:34,960
that are the servants of satan that also

2155
01:16:39,030 --> 01:16:37,120
whenever they hear about any outlier

2156
01:16:40,950 --> 01:16:39,040
data to their perspective like you know

2157
01:16:42,470 --> 01:16:40,960
well they they healed me or they healed

2158
01:16:45,110 --> 01:16:42,480
my dog or

2159
01:16:46,709 --> 01:16:45,120
um you know they've shown me things that

2160
01:16:48,950 --> 01:16:46,719
have made me more loving and accepting

2161
01:16:50,390 --> 01:16:48,960
of others they'll say well that's just a

2162
01:16:51,830 --> 01:16:50,400
ruse and none of that really matters

2163
01:16:53,110 --> 01:16:51,840
because you're going to lose your soul

2164
01:16:54,790 --> 01:16:53,120
in the process and then you're going to

2165
01:16:56,470 --> 01:16:54,800
spend eternity with satan and those

2166
01:16:57,590 --> 01:16:56,480
demons and then you'll see them for what

2167
01:16:59,189 --> 01:16:57,600
they are and you'll regret the whole

2168
01:17:01,830 --> 01:16:59,199
thing

2169
01:17:04,470 --> 01:17:01,840
you see my point in both cases you have

2170
01:17:06,390 --> 01:17:04,480
exclusion of data

2171
01:17:09,270 --> 01:17:06,400
and for the in the process of trying to

2172
01:17:12,070 --> 01:17:09,280
defend a predetermined position so

2173
01:17:15,750 --> 01:17:12,080
i would encourage everyone to

2174
01:17:16,950 --> 01:17:15,760
to not opt for those easy solutions to

2175
01:17:18,630 --> 01:17:16,960
if you take anything from what we're

2176
01:17:19,750 --> 01:17:18,640
saying it's that there's a depth and a

2177
01:17:21,110 --> 01:17:19,760
breadth of

2178
01:17:23,030 --> 01:17:21,120
of data

2179
01:17:24,630 --> 01:17:23,040
that covers the gamut

2180
01:17:27,430 --> 01:17:24,640
some people who want to say that even

2181
01:17:28,950 --> 01:17:27,440
negative experiences ultimately are just

2182
01:17:31,510 --> 01:17:28,960
positive experiences that just haven't

2183
01:17:32,709 --> 01:17:31,520
been seen in the right light yet

2184
01:17:34,470 --> 01:17:32,719
there are other people who get really

2185
01:17:35,990 --> 01:17:34,480
frustrated with that and feel they feel

2186
01:17:39,590 --> 01:17:36,000
like it um

2187
01:17:41,189 --> 01:17:39,600
it uh it blockades truth because there's

2188
01:17:42,550 --> 01:17:41,199
the truth for some people is that these

2189
01:17:44,790 --> 01:17:42,560
have always been and always will be

2190
01:17:46,149 --> 01:17:44,800
negative experiences as we've said many

2191
01:17:47,830 --> 01:17:46,159
times before

2192
01:17:50,070 --> 01:17:47,840
even for those who end up with a

2193
01:17:51,910 --> 01:17:50,080
positive interpretation ultimately like

2194
01:17:54,470 --> 01:17:51,920
a whitley strieber

2195
01:17:56,950 --> 01:17:54,480
they were extremely traumatic

2196
01:17:58,950 --> 01:17:56,960
always ontologically shocking

2197
01:18:00,310 --> 01:17:58,960
they tear your life apart

2198
01:18:02,229 --> 01:18:00,320
even if they ultimately end up being

2199
01:18:03,590 --> 01:18:02,239
rebuilt into something more transcendent

2200
01:18:05,030 --> 01:18:03,600
and beautiful

2201
01:18:06,390 --> 01:18:05,040
there's a there's a middle process

2202
01:18:08,229 --> 01:18:06,400
that's no fun

2203
01:18:10,630 --> 01:18:08,239
where your cognitive dissonance is off

2204
01:18:13,270 --> 01:18:10,640
the charts right so um

2205
01:18:15,030 --> 01:18:13,280
yeah i would just say that's how i would

2206
01:18:16,229 --> 01:18:15,040
i would interact with people is is try

2207
01:18:19,430 --> 01:18:16,239
to

2208
01:18:20,790 --> 01:18:19,440
maybe their their current model doesn't

2209
01:18:22,310 --> 01:18:20,800
fit and that's on both sides of the

2210
01:18:24,070 --> 01:18:22,320
spectrum and we're not trying to dismiss

2211
01:18:26,630 --> 01:18:24,080
anyone

2212
01:18:28,870 --> 01:18:26,640
the the perspective i like to bring

2213
01:18:30,709 --> 01:18:28,880
to people in general is that people most

2214
01:18:32,470 --> 01:18:30,719
people are doing the best they can to

2215
01:18:34,709 --> 01:18:32,480
show up in life as best they can and

2216
01:18:35,830 --> 01:18:34,719
make sense of the world and do what they

2217
01:18:37,910 --> 01:18:35,840
think

2218
01:18:40,149 --> 01:18:37,920
their transcendent idea of what ultimate

2219
01:18:42,390 --> 01:18:40,159
spirituality is wants them to do that's

2220
01:18:44,310 --> 01:18:42,400
what everyone's trying to do and and so

2221
01:18:46,070 --> 01:18:44,320
i think we want to honor

2222
01:18:48,229 --> 01:18:46,080
that um

2223
01:18:49,910 --> 01:18:48,239
that intention in people and try and

2224
01:18:52,310 --> 01:18:49,920
meet people where they are and and just

2225
01:18:56,070 --> 01:18:52,320
see where the conversation goes yeah i

2226
01:18:57,510 --> 01:18:56,080
completely agree uh it's important to

2227
01:18:59,350 --> 01:18:57,520
recognize

2228
01:19:01,990 --> 01:18:59,360
where someone is situated

2229
01:19:03,590 --> 01:19:02,000
and if they feel

2230
01:19:06,229 --> 01:19:03,600
that it makes sense of the world they

2231
01:19:07,910 --> 01:19:06,239
find themselves if it

2232
01:19:09,830 --> 01:19:07,920
you know helps them to navigate that

2233
01:19:11,110 --> 01:19:09,840
world interact in a healthy way with

2234
01:19:11,910 --> 01:19:11,120
other people

2235
01:19:13,350 --> 01:19:11,920
uh

2236
01:19:15,430 --> 01:19:13,360
you know and they don't

2237
01:19:17,430 --> 01:19:15,440
really want to rock that boat uh they're

2238
01:19:20,149 --> 01:19:17,440
not looking to rock that boat i don't

2239
01:19:23,030 --> 01:19:20,159
necessarily see it as my job to be

2240
01:19:24,709 --> 01:19:23,040
the boat rocker uh at the same time

2241
01:19:27,910 --> 01:19:24,719
uh if

2242
01:19:31,189 --> 01:19:27,920
they do seem interested in

2243
01:19:35,990 --> 01:19:33,510
exploring new territory or

2244
01:19:37,750 --> 01:19:36,000
or firming up the beliefs that they that

2245
01:19:39,830 --> 01:19:37,760
they currently have

2246
01:19:41,430 --> 01:19:39,840
then i completely concur and that's what

2247
01:19:43,189 --> 01:19:41,440
i would want to tell myself too if i

2248
01:19:45,830 --> 01:19:43,199
were to go back and talk to my younger

2249
01:19:47,270 --> 01:19:45,840
self you know it would be to say

2250
01:19:48,950 --> 01:19:47,280
i know you've got some pretty good

2251
01:19:51,669 --> 01:19:48,960
opinions pretty strong opinions about

2252
01:19:54,390 --> 01:19:51,679
what you think is going on you know take

2253
01:19:55,990 --> 01:19:54,400
those opinions and put them against

2254
01:19:57,590 --> 01:19:56,000
some of the data some of the other

2255
01:19:59,430 --> 01:19:57,600
experience that you may be less

2256
01:20:01,430 --> 01:19:59,440
comfortable confronting

2257
01:20:03,430 --> 01:20:01,440
and how do you wrestle with that and

2258
01:20:04,950 --> 01:20:03,440
make sense of it and it's much the same

2259
01:20:06,629 --> 01:20:04,960
way that

2260
01:20:09,189 --> 01:20:06,639
i would encourage people

2261
01:20:10,950 --> 01:20:09,199
uh who feel very comfortable where they

2262
01:20:13,030 --> 01:20:10,960
live to travel

2263
01:20:15,350 --> 01:20:13,040
and see other parts of the world you

2264
01:20:16,950 --> 01:20:15,360
know that that through travel you gain a

2265
01:20:18,950 --> 01:20:16,960
new appreciation

2266
01:20:20,950 --> 01:20:18,960
i think for work for what you have where

2267
01:20:23,590 --> 01:20:20,960
you are where you've come from

2268
01:20:25,990 --> 01:20:23,600
and and you incorporate the experience

2269
01:20:28,149 --> 01:20:26,000
that you gain so it's it's very much

2270
01:20:30,470 --> 01:20:28,159
uh not uh

2271
01:20:33,350 --> 01:20:30,480
a process or experience that

2272
01:20:35,510 --> 01:20:33,360
uh belittles you know what you have it

2273
01:20:38,310 --> 01:20:35,520
actually expands what you have

2274
01:20:39,830 --> 01:20:38,320
uh expands your understanding and and

2275
01:20:42,550 --> 01:20:39,840
hopefully makes that

2276
01:20:45,430 --> 01:20:42,560
in the end a a richer exercise

2277
01:20:46,390 --> 01:20:45,440
a more valuable meaningful life

2278
01:20:49,030 --> 01:20:46,400
and that

2279
01:20:50,390 --> 01:20:49,040
you know i'm reminded frequently quite

2280
01:20:52,790 --> 01:20:50,400
frankly

2281
01:20:53,990 --> 01:20:52,800
that in our search for the truth with a

2282
01:20:56,070 --> 01:20:54,000
capital t

2283
01:20:57,270 --> 01:20:56,080
uh that our search for disclosure with a

2284
01:20:59,189 --> 01:20:57,280
capital d

2285
01:21:01,830 --> 01:20:59,199
you know we really want these

2286
01:21:03,510 --> 01:21:01,840
we want these things so badly

2287
01:21:05,910 --> 01:21:03,520
and

2288
01:21:07,750 --> 01:21:05,920
i do go through this sort of imaginative

2289
01:21:08,870 --> 01:21:07,760
exercise okay what if you got those

2290
01:21:13,030 --> 01:21:08,880
things

2291
01:21:16,229 --> 01:21:13,040
tomorrow you know what it what does

2292
01:21:18,229 --> 01:21:16,239
nathan still have to do you know so who

2293
01:21:19,750 --> 01:21:18,239
is nathan still have to be

2294
01:21:22,149 --> 01:21:19,760
you know and i think this is these are

2295
01:21:23,750 --> 01:21:22,159
the the ultimate questions that we have

2296
01:21:26,149 --> 01:21:23,760
to wrestle with

2297
01:21:28,950 --> 01:21:26,159
uh because

2298
01:21:32,950 --> 01:21:28,960
there's not

2299
01:21:34,950 --> 01:21:32,960
if we have this notion that there is a

2300
01:21:36,629 --> 01:21:34,960
there's someone coming to save us

2301
01:21:38,070 --> 01:21:36,639
there's this salvific

2302
01:21:40,149 --> 01:21:38,080
expectation

2303
01:21:43,590 --> 01:21:40,159
you know i really think that that will

2304
01:21:44,629 --> 01:21:43,600
be uh that is misplaced

2305
01:21:48,149 --> 01:21:44,639
that

2306
01:21:52,229 --> 01:21:48,159
reductionist

2307
01:21:54,790 --> 01:21:52,239
uh and flattens uh the lived experience

2308
01:21:57,270 --> 01:21:54,800
you know so we really have to be true to

2309
01:21:58,070 --> 01:21:57,280
to what we value most in life and that

2310
01:21:58,950 --> 01:21:58,080
is

2311
01:22:01,990 --> 01:21:58,960
uh

2312
01:22:04,070 --> 01:22:02,000
relationship and and and experience

2313
01:22:06,070 --> 01:22:04,080
itself and novelty

2314
01:22:08,310 --> 01:22:06,080
and and beauty and all these things when

2315
01:22:12,149 --> 01:22:08,320
you when you think about them are very

2316
01:22:16,149 --> 01:22:14,149
totally and i think that you know when

2317
01:22:17,830 --> 01:22:16,159
when you get on a platform like ufo

2318
01:22:20,229 --> 01:22:17,840
twitter rather than saying uh those are

2319
01:22:21,990 --> 01:22:20,239
the nuts and bolts crowd and this is the

2320
01:22:24,470 --> 01:22:22,000
spiritually transcendent crowd and this

2321
01:22:26,550 --> 01:22:24,480
is the you know whatever crowd remember

2322
01:22:28,070 --> 01:22:26,560
that they're all human beings you know

2323
01:22:30,390 --> 01:22:28,080
and therefore have more in common with

2324
01:22:33,270 --> 01:22:30,400
you than they do than they don't and um

2325
01:22:34,629 --> 01:22:33,280
and and yeah i think that sometimes

2326
01:22:36,950 --> 01:22:34,639
as much as we

2327
01:22:38,550 --> 01:22:36,960
legitimately ask ourselves why are we so

2328
01:22:40,070 --> 01:22:38,560
fascinated with this topic you know

2329
01:22:42,149 --> 01:22:40,080
drawn into it

2330
01:22:43,669 --> 01:22:42,159
and we discussed last time how

2331
01:22:45,030 --> 01:22:43,679
partly it's because it touches on all

2332
01:22:46,629 --> 01:22:45,040
the big questions

2333
01:22:47,910 --> 01:22:46,639
the most transcending questions about

2334
01:22:51,830 --> 01:22:47,920
why we're here where we're going all

2335
01:22:53,990 --> 01:22:51,840
that um but we also don't want to let

2336
01:22:55,669 --> 01:22:54,000
that become um

2337
01:22:56,870 --> 01:22:55,679
you know excuse not not to live our

2338
01:22:58,709 --> 01:22:56,880
lives you know that you have to make

2339
01:23:00,709 --> 01:22:58,719
sure that this is not just a sort of a

2340
01:23:02,070 --> 01:23:00,719
fill-in or stand-in

2341
01:23:03,830 --> 01:23:02,080
for um

2342
01:23:05,350 --> 01:23:03,840
not being comfortable in your own skin

2343
01:23:06,950 --> 01:23:05,360
kind of thing you know and

2344
01:23:08,950 --> 01:23:06,960
um

2345
01:23:10,470 --> 01:23:08,960
i always you know encourage speaking of

2346
01:23:11,990 --> 01:23:10,480
spirituality

2347
01:23:14,629 --> 01:23:12,000
you know people having a meditative

2348
01:23:17,189 --> 01:23:14,639
practice um not just because it becomes

2349
01:23:19,350 --> 01:23:17,199
a a way to potentially

2350
01:23:21,189 --> 01:23:19,360
reach across the veil and experience

2351
01:23:23,430 --> 01:23:21,199
other entities and other aspects of

2352
01:23:25,830 --> 01:23:23,440
reality in the stream of consciousness

2353
01:23:28,470 --> 01:23:25,840
but also because it it stops the mental

2354
01:23:30,790 --> 01:23:28,480
activity all the guessing games that go

2355
01:23:33,590 --> 01:23:30,800
on that become its own thing right we

2356
01:23:35,430 --> 01:23:33,600
get become defined by and it lets just

2357
01:23:38,310 --> 01:23:35,440
lets you sit in your own skin and just

2358
01:23:40,870 --> 01:23:38,320
be you know and not have to know

2359
01:23:43,350 --> 01:23:40,880
um and to be in that moment in the now

2360
01:23:44,629 --> 01:23:43,360
is enough and to really

2361
01:23:45,750 --> 01:23:44,639
not just tell yourself that

2362
01:23:47,669 --> 01:23:45,760
intellectually but get to the point

2363
01:23:49,590 --> 01:23:47,679
where it feels that way you know that i

2364
01:23:50,629 --> 01:23:49,600
really would encourage people to do that

2365
01:23:52,790 --> 01:23:50,639
and

2366
01:23:54,390 --> 01:23:52,800
i was thinking about what you said about

2367
01:23:56,550 --> 01:23:54,400
if we finally did get the answer or if

2368
01:23:58,229 --> 01:23:56,560
we finally did get capital t disclos or

2369
01:23:59,990 --> 01:23:58,239
capital d disclosure

2370
01:24:02,629 --> 01:24:00,000
i'm reminded of that you know proverb

2371
01:24:04,470 --> 01:24:02,639
that says you know but before

2372
01:24:07,350 --> 01:24:04,480
enlightenment you know chop wood fold

2373
01:24:09,270 --> 01:24:07,360
laundry after enlightenment chop wood

2374
01:24:10,470 --> 01:24:09,280
fold laundry you know

2375
01:24:12,390 --> 01:24:10,480
in other words

2376
01:24:14,550 --> 01:24:12,400
um

2377
01:24:16,310 --> 01:24:14,560
your perspective may shift might become

2378
01:24:19,030 --> 01:24:16,320
more transcendent might become deeper

2379
01:24:19,990 --> 01:24:19,040
richer but remember to show up live your

2380
01:24:21,990 --> 01:24:20,000
life

2381
01:24:25,510 --> 01:24:22,000
treat other people as human beings

2382
01:24:26,790 --> 01:24:25,520
and and and let's not divide over these

2383
01:24:29,110 --> 01:24:26,800
um you know

2384
01:24:31,110 --> 01:24:29,120
arbitrary lines between how we interpret

2385
01:24:32,629 --> 01:24:31,120
this phenomenon and and let's keep the

2386
01:24:33,510 --> 01:24:32,639
conversation going and i hope that when

2387
01:24:35,510 --> 01:24:33,520
we

2388
01:24:37,350 --> 01:24:35,520
for people who've tuned in today

2389
01:24:40,229 --> 01:24:37,360
i hope we haven't we didn't mean to

2390
01:24:41,350 --> 01:24:40,239
dismiss anyone's perspective um

2391
01:24:43,110 --> 01:24:41,360
we're not trying to claim that we're

2392
01:24:45,189 --> 01:24:43,120
right that we you know if you just align

2393
01:24:47,669 --> 01:24:45,199
with us you'll be you'll be good to go

2394
01:24:49,910 --> 01:24:47,679
uh we're trying to admit

2395
01:24:51,910 --> 01:24:49,920
um that we believe ourselves that we are

2396
01:24:53,830 --> 01:24:51,920
moving targets and that

2397
01:24:55,110 --> 01:24:53,840
five years from now our future selves

2398
01:24:57,510 --> 01:24:55,120
will want to come back and have a

2399
01:24:59,669 --> 01:24:57,520
conversation with our current selves and

2400
01:25:01,350 --> 01:24:59,679
and suggest some shifts and some some

2401
01:25:02,629 --> 01:25:01,360
new data that we hadn't considered right

2402
01:25:04,070 --> 01:25:02,639
now so

2403
01:25:05,750 --> 01:25:04,080
like we've been saying all along this is

2404
01:25:06,950 --> 01:25:05,760
just the journey let's enjoy it let's

2405
01:25:09,669 --> 01:25:06,960
treat it like an adventure and let's

2406
01:25:11,750 --> 01:25:09,679
keep going absolutely

2407
01:25:14,070 --> 01:25:11,760
yeah i'm i'm grateful to be on this

2408
01:25:15,590 --> 01:25:14,080
journey with you and uh and with our

2409
01:25:17,110 --> 01:25:15,600
listeners we've gotten a lot of

2410
01:25:18,870 --> 01:25:17,120
excellent feedback

2411
01:25:20,950 --> 01:25:18,880
uh from our listeners and and look

2412
01:25:23,990 --> 01:25:20,960
forward to receiving more feedback

2413
01:25:25,830 --> 01:25:24,000
uh as time goes on uh we do encourage

2414
01:25:28,629 --> 01:25:25,840
folks to engage with us we we love

2415
01:25:30,550 --> 01:25:28,639
reading your comments on youtube or

2416
01:25:32,310 --> 01:25:30,560
anyone that sends us a message on

2417
01:25:34,709 --> 01:25:32,320
twitter

2418
01:25:36,229 --> 01:25:34,719
very much welcome uh all of the feedback

2419
01:25:38,310 --> 01:25:36,239
that we receive

2420
01:25:41,110 --> 01:25:38,320
you can find our show

2421
01:25:43,350 --> 01:25:41,120
on most podcast platforms uh you can

2422
01:25:44,149 --> 01:25:43,360
search under liminal frames on youtube

2423
01:25:48,070 --> 01:25:44,159
under

2424
01:25:50,870 --> 01:25:48,080
uh the exo academian uh youtube channel

2425
01:25:52,550 --> 01:25:50,880
and then uh if you want to uh find us uh

2426
01:25:56,149 --> 01:25:52,560
uh kind of on our personal twitter

2427
01:25:57,350 --> 01:25:56,159
accounts uh you can find me at awayf

2428
01:26:00,950 --> 01:25:57,360
soul

2429
01:26:02,470 --> 01:26:00,960
and then exo at exo academian

2430
01:26:05,350 --> 01:26:02,480
it's been a pleasure

2431
01:26:07,270 --> 01:26:05,360
covering this topic today it felt very

2432
01:26:09,430 --> 01:26:07,280
personal for me in a way that i think i

2433
01:26:11,110 --> 01:26:09,440
wasn't expecting uh and i very much

2434
01:26:13,110 --> 01:26:11,120
enjoyed it but looking forward to the

2435
01:26:15,590 --> 01:26:13,120
next episode

2436
01:26:17,189 --> 01:26:15,600
yeah myself also and uh just as a quick

2437
01:26:18,229 --> 01:26:17,199
reminder on the liminal frames you

2438
01:26:19,830 --> 01:26:18,239
probably already know this if you're

2439
01:26:21,270 --> 01:26:19,840
listening to this but it's built with a

2440
01:26:24,310 --> 01:26:21,280
ph so don't forget that if you're

2441
01:26:26,550 --> 01:26:24,320
looking for it look for frames with a ph

2442
01:26:28,070 --> 01:26:26,560
i enjoyed it too and

2443
01:26:30,149 --> 01:26:28,080
again like we've mentioned before we

2444
01:26:31,590 --> 01:26:30,159
really hope that this becomes a

2445
01:26:34,629 --> 01:26:31,600
conversation that includes more than

2446
01:26:36,629 --> 01:26:34,639
just the two of us so we do hope people

2447
01:26:38,470 --> 01:26:36,639
give us feedback

2448
01:26:40,870 --> 01:26:38,480
give us thoughts give us ideas on what

2449
01:26:43,030 --> 01:26:40,880
they'd like to see in future shows

2450
01:26:45,030 --> 01:26:43,040
we've even talked about maybe doing a

2451
01:26:46,629 --> 01:26:45,040
show in the future where we engage with

2452
01:26:49,030 --> 01:26:46,639
listener questions for the entire 90

2453
01:26:50,629 --> 01:26:49,040
minutes so if you have burning questions

2454
01:26:52,870 --> 01:26:50,639
you would like to have

2455
01:26:53,590 --> 01:26:52,880
us engage with to do with the phenomenon

2456
01:26:55,830 --> 01:26:53,600
or

2457
01:26:57,990 --> 01:26:55,840
you know hi strangers in general please

2458
01:26:59,750 --> 01:26:58,000
let us know if you think there's some

2459
01:27:02,550 --> 01:26:59,760
aspect that you think we are

2460
01:27:03,830 --> 01:27:02,560
underrepresenting or too dismissive of

2461
01:27:05,669 --> 01:27:03,840
you know let us know that as well we

2462
01:27:07,510 --> 01:27:05,679
might not agree but we're always open to

2463
01:27:08,950 --> 01:27:07,520
hearing other perspectives and we really

2464
01:27:11,110 --> 01:27:08,960
do want this to be

2465
01:27:12,149 --> 01:27:11,120
a wide reaching conversation with many

2466
01:27:13,669 --> 01:27:12,159
people

2467
01:27:16,470 --> 01:27:13,679
absolutely

2468
01:27:19,189 --> 01:27:16,480
and now we'll close with our benediction

2469
01:27:22,070 --> 01:27:19,199
may the quality of our questions

2470
01:27:24,550 --> 01:27:22,080
shaped by a desire for understanding

2471
01:27:26,149 --> 01:27:24,560
enhance our journey of discovery

2472
01:27:28,790 --> 01:27:26,159
and may our travels broaden the sphere

2473
01:27:32,149 --> 01:27:28,800
of our consciousness reminding us that

2474
01:27:33,350 --> 01:27:32,159
new discoveries beget new horizons and

2475
01:27:35,430 --> 01:27:33,360
as always

2476
01:27:39,870 --> 01:27:35,440
adventure awaits we'll see you next time

2477
01:27:43,670 --> 01:27:42,000
[Music]

2478
01:27:49,950 --> 01:27:43,680
[Laughter]